There you go, you voting maniacs, here's your Burgundian government extra. Is this canon for the new rewrite? Probably no, I imagine I'll touch it up and rewrite it once we get there but for now it will be "canon" under the new rewrite. Yes, I changed Charles' epithet to Charles the Absolute. It makes sense based on his OTL personality. Don't worry too much about the timeline here. It's subject to change (I haven't thought that far ahead) What I am currently curious, do y'all think it is remotely feasible to have Burgundy's endgame borders at the Seine River?
Kingdom-Building: A Valois-Bourgogne TL
- Thread starter Liminia1
- Start date
Yes kinda, after a long a very deep search of imperial and French medieval politics at the time, I concluded that it was just near impossible to give them a kingdom until at least the 1700s LOL. France and the Holy Roman Empire need to be weak ASF and the title Kingdom practically irrelevant.
So I take it you are not going to take the TL to the 1700s?
You could have the French commit some war crime that not even the pope could overlook, and then the Burgandans could declare independence, a declare the kingdom of Burgandy. Who is going to say no, the English are their friends and only France and the HRE have something to lose, but the rest of Europe should not have a problem.
You could have the French commit some war crime that not even the pope could overlook, and then the Burgandans could declare independence, a declare the kingdom of Burgandy. Who is going to say no, the English are their friends and only France and the HRE have something to lose, but the rest of Europe should not have a problem.
My copium plan is to keep it going until Modern day LOL. The real question can Burgundy reach the Seine river?
Could they, yes absolutely
Should they, I would say no, for the sake of maps looking nice, really if you ask me their current western border is already really good, it just needs to be cleaned up a bit
Could you please tell me the rough border the you are giving, I´d like to think of myself as your personal cartographer
Sandwiched between the seine and Rhine rivers, Burgundy controls a good portion of modern day Switzerland, (practically all land west of Bern?) Not 100% sure about the southern borders but it definitely will be bordering a larger Provence (Provence + Dauphiné) to the north it should control all of modern Netherlands and some extra like east Frisia.
Teaser 4? The Families of France
"Just like in every kingdom in Western Europe, the nobility were entrenched and semi-independent from the King."
The house of Valois-Anjou had their fingers all over Western Europe, whether it was the Queen Marie of Anjou for France, Queen Margaret of Anjou for England, René of Anjou, or Yolande of Lorraine. Their first figure rose to prominence when Louis I of Anjou claimed the throne against Charles III of Naples, after Joanna's war against Charles and subsequent death. The usage of French funds and power to pointlessly pursue the throne of Naples would strengthen the Angevin position to the point of puppet master of the French under Louis II. His daughter Marie of Anjou would be wedded to the disgraced Dauphin, it was a long shot to gain puppeteering control over France and it paid off with Charles VII of France becoming king, and his wife Marie of Anjou becoming queen. This would not improve their chances at getting the throne of Naples though as the final Angevin "king" of Naples, Rene of Anjou would be thrown out by Alfonso V of Aragon who would later take the crown for himself. Just because, the Angevins would lose Naples doesn't mean that they didn't win in other categories, Rene would marry the heiress of Lorraine, Isabella and gain the duchies of Lorraine and Bar jure uxrois. His son John II, would later assume those duchies. Father and son would not agree however, as Rene fought tooth and nail against the Burgundians to take those duchies from another claimant, Antoine de Vaudemont. This succession would only be resolved with the marriage between John II of Lorraine and Marie of Bourbon, making John, a Burgundian ally. Rene would still achieve some success, reducing the standing army of the French and recovering Maine and Normandy himself in Rouen. He would also make his daughter, Margaret the queen of England per the Treaty of Tours. His brother Charles would become the court darling as Charles, Count of Maine. A rival for the ambitious dauphin. This house has placed their fingers, in France, Burgundy, England, Naples and Aragon. Either one of their ventures succeed or all of their fingers will be cut and this house will collapse, overstretched and distant from each other just like their domains.
The third pillar of France, was the Capetian Bourbons, a branching dynasty that entered around lands in Aquitaine, Auvergne, and the Languedoc. Their power centralized in France but various rivalling claims within the dynasty especially between Bourbon and Bourbon-Montpensier over Auvergne would continue to fight over that inheritance, but just that petty rivalry will not do put a stop to their power as one of the most powerful dukes would arrive, Charles I of Bourbon, mastermind of the Praguerie. He would consolidate his bourbon lands to control all of Auvergne, Bourbon, and Forez. Only this defeat would weaken it slightly, splitting the inheritance into two for his sons. This wouldn't stop the duke as his eldest son, John the Good or the Scourge of the English would prove to be one of the most powerful magnates of France. This house is centralized and powerful but as we saw in the Praguerie under the shadow of the king, and when the Dauphin returns to take the crown. That shadow will consume them if they do not act.
The second and now disgraced pillar of France, the Valois-Orleans are by far the weakest faction in France. Only recently returned to France from English prison. Charles I of Orleans is now a firm Burgundian ally and member of the Golden Fleece. Philip the Good, Duke of Burgundy is his saviour after all. The Duke of Orleans is but a shadow of his father, writing poetry and merely enjoying his freedom and yet if the Valois line dies. Charles would be the legitimate king, but there is another branch Orleans-Angouleme, but as always the current duke Charles, captured by the English but still a fighting man liberating Guyenne with his illegitimate half-brother. Should Orleans come to throne, they can not be staying in the shadow of English Captivity and must act as proper kings.
France and Navarre have always had a murky relationship at best, and it would be capsulated by the house of Foix, lead by the powerful and militaristic Gaston IV of Foix, the house that is solely concentrated in the southern regions of Aquitaine and France have always been a loyal vassal of the King of France, however its loyalty and meddling in Navarre by Gaston's marriage to Eleanor of Navarre will draw the ire of Aragon, under John II of Aragon, the sole goal is to take Navarre by force, but can France really afford even more enemies?
The war ravaged and devastated duchy of Aquitaine leaves one house ruling in its ruins, the House of Albret. A house of warrior princes, they tore the land from the English in the name of the king, Charles VII of France and was rewarded with only a fraction of the once great duchy. They remain loyal for now but are surrounded by royal domains, ripe for plunder and for conquest. Charles I of Albret is the sword of the king, but with the king slowly fading from strength, he looks towards the Dauphin who is ambitious and power-hungry, his small county would be the first to fall by the Dauphin. The warrior house must not fall and conquer by right of conquest the Duchy of Aquitaine or it shall collapse and be swept away by the crown.
The once great house of Armagnac is plagued with scandal, John V of Armagnac is the grandson of the great Bernard VII of Armagnac who could be called the dictator of France. He would not be pleased with his grandson who married his own sister. This scandal would cause him to earn the wrath of the papacy, as he would continuously fight over whether or not he had the papal dispensation for this marriage. He is now wanted for arrest, while his heir currently is his brother, the true armagnac bloodline would be in his cousin, Jacques d'Armagnac who has been fighting on behalf of the king, Charles VII in Aquitaine for quite some time. Perhaps this house will return to its former glory as tyrant and dictator of France or will the Dauphin extinguish it and rightfully so.
Brittany has always maintained its independence as soon as the Hundred Years War began under the steady rule of John the Wise, he guided the state of Brittany much like Burgundy into de facto independence but yet Brittany is still not safe, France is more united that it has ever been and will seek to restore the duchy as a proper French vassal. Peter II is not a man of great will or strength, it is only by his wife Françoise d'Amboise does Brittany maintain some semblance of stability, and yet darker clouds fly as the heir presumptive is Arthur, the constable of France. Brittany has its independence for over 100 years, but the king and more importantly the Dauphin will not have it last another year, should Brittany survive it shall forever remain a thorn for France and an opportunity for England and Burgundy to sow even more chaos and trouble for France. If Brittany falls, France shall finally secure its war torn western border with the sea protecting them.
The house of Valois-Anjou had their fingers all over Western Europe, whether it was the Queen Marie of Anjou for France, Queen Margaret of Anjou for England, René of Anjou, or Yolande of Lorraine. Their first figure rose to prominence when Louis I of Anjou claimed the throne against Charles III of Naples, after Joanna's war against Charles and subsequent death. The usage of French funds and power to pointlessly pursue the throne of Naples would strengthen the Angevin position to the point of puppet master of the French under Louis II. His daughter Marie of Anjou would be wedded to the disgraced Dauphin, it was a long shot to gain puppeteering control over France and it paid off with Charles VII of France becoming king, and his wife Marie of Anjou becoming queen. This would not improve their chances at getting the throne of Naples though as the final Angevin "king" of Naples, Rene of Anjou would be thrown out by Alfonso V of Aragon who would later take the crown for himself. Just because, the Angevins would lose Naples doesn't mean that they didn't win in other categories, Rene would marry the heiress of Lorraine, Isabella and gain the duchies of Lorraine and Bar jure uxrois. His son John II, would later assume those duchies. Father and son would not agree however, as Rene fought tooth and nail against the Burgundians to take those duchies from another claimant, Antoine de Vaudemont. This succession would only be resolved with the marriage between John II of Lorraine and Marie of Bourbon, making John, a Burgundian ally. Rene would still achieve some success, reducing the standing army of the French and recovering Maine and Normandy himself in Rouen. He would also make his daughter, Margaret the queen of England per the Treaty of Tours. His brother Charles would become the court darling as Charles, Count of Maine. A rival for the ambitious dauphin. This house has placed their fingers, in France, Burgundy, England, Naples and Aragon. Either one of their ventures succeed or all of their fingers will be cut and this house will collapse, overstretched and distant from each other just like their domains.
The third pillar of France, was the Capetian Bourbons, a branching dynasty that entered around lands in Aquitaine, Auvergne, and the Languedoc. Their power centralized in France but various rivalling claims within the dynasty especially between Bourbon and Bourbon-Montpensier over Auvergne would continue to fight over that inheritance, but just that petty rivalry will not do put a stop to their power as one of the most powerful dukes would arrive, Charles I of Bourbon, mastermind of the Praguerie. He would consolidate his bourbon lands to control all of Auvergne, Bourbon, and Forez. Only this defeat would weaken it slightly, splitting the inheritance into two for his sons. This wouldn't stop the duke as his eldest son, John the Good or the Scourge of the English would prove to be one of the most powerful magnates of France. This house is centralized and powerful but as we saw in the Praguerie under the shadow of the king, and when the Dauphin returns to take the crown. That shadow will consume them if they do not act.
The second and now disgraced pillar of France, the Valois-Orleans are by far the weakest faction in France. Only recently returned to France from English prison. Charles I of Orleans is now a firm Burgundian ally and member of the Golden Fleece. Philip the Good, Duke of Burgundy is his saviour after all. The Duke of Orleans is but a shadow of his father, writing poetry and merely enjoying his freedom and yet if the Valois line dies. Charles would be the legitimate king, but there is another branch Orleans-Angouleme, but as always the current duke Charles, captured by the English but still a fighting man liberating Guyenne with his illegitimate half-brother. Should Orleans come to throne, they can not be staying in the shadow of English Captivity and must act as proper kings.
France and Navarre have always had a murky relationship at best, and it would be capsulated by the house of Foix, lead by the powerful and militaristic Gaston IV of Foix, the house that is solely concentrated in the southern regions of Aquitaine and France have always been a loyal vassal of the King of France, however its loyalty and meddling in Navarre by Gaston's marriage to Eleanor of Navarre will draw the ire of Aragon, under John II of Aragon, the sole goal is to take Navarre by force, but can France really afford even more enemies?
The war ravaged and devastated duchy of Aquitaine leaves one house ruling in its ruins, the House of Albret. A house of warrior princes, they tore the land from the English in the name of the king, Charles VII of France and was rewarded with only a fraction of the once great duchy. They remain loyal for now but are surrounded by royal domains, ripe for plunder and for conquest. Charles I of Albret is the sword of the king, but with the king slowly fading from strength, he looks towards the Dauphin who is ambitious and power-hungry, his small county would be the first to fall by the Dauphin. The warrior house must not fall and conquer by right of conquest the Duchy of Aquitaine or it shall collapse and be swept away by the crown.
The once great house of Armagnac is plagued with scandal, John V of Armagnac is the grandson of the great Bernard VII of Armagnac who could be called the dictator of France. He would not be pleased with his grandson who married his own sister. This scandal would cause him to earn the wrath of the papacy, as he would continuously fight over whether or not he had the papal dispensation for this marriage. He is now wanted for arrest, while his heir currently is his brother, the true armagnac bloodline would be in his cousin, Jacques d'Armagnac who has been fighting on behalf of the king, Charles VII in Aquitaine for quite some time. Perhaps this house will return to its former glory as tyrant and dictator of France or will the Dauphin extinguish it and rightfully so.
Brittany has always maintained its independence as soon as the Hundred Years War began under the steady rule of John the Wise, he guided the state of Brittany much like Burgundy into de facto independence but yet Brittany is still not safe, France is more united that it has ever been and will seek to restore the duchy as a proper French vassal. Peter II is not a man of great will or strength, it is only by his wife Françoise d'Amboise does Brittany maintain some semblance of stability, and yet darker clouds fly as the heir presumptive is Arthur, the constable of France. Brittany has its independence for over 100 years, but the king and more importantly the Dauphin will not have it last another year, should Brittany survive it shall forever remain a thorn for France and an opportunity for England and Burgundy to sow even more chaos and trouble for France. If Brittany falls, France shall finally secure its war torn western border with the sea protecting them.
Rewrite Available :D
SO IN CASE YOU ALL HAVEN'T REALIZED I HAVE STARTED MY REWRITE <3 I introduce to you all: Walking on the Silver Line: A Valois-Bourgogne TL