Keynes' Cruisers

[hplurker]

Peter principle, I guess.

In a sense. Mainly this reflects a problem in selecting someone for a leadership position based on their performance as a staff officer. Phillips also benefited from coming into Churchill's attention.

 

[TonyA]

In a sense. Mainly this reflects a problem in selecting someone for a leadership position based on their performance as a staff officer. Phillips also benefited from coming into Churchill's attention.

So...like Eisenhower?

 

[Marquis]

How many ships are in ATL Force Z?

IOTL, it was just PoW, Repulse and 4 Destroyers.

What I feel would be useful and acceptable to the Admiralty would be deploying the C-Class AA cruisers to the Far East as escorts, or even get them refitted/rebuilt in American ports as potent anti-aircraft platforms.

 

[TonyA]

What I feel would be useful and acceptable to the Admiralty would be deploying the C-Class AA cruisers to the Far East as escorts, or even get them refitted/rebuilt in American ports as potent anti-aircraft platforms.

I "liked" this post, but, this is a gray area for me. Sending them to the US suggests 5" 38cal; these vessels were top heavy with 8 4"HA OTL, the best they could hope for is a HMS Delhi-like refit with 5 guns. How about concentrating on increasing the top speed to vic of 32 kts, improve the electronics suite, radar, directors, etc, and keep the UK type AAA upgrade, pending the arrival of VT fuses for 4" shells? Or, even, US 90mm/Brit 3.7" AA guns? Suspect the latter has logistic consequences...

 

[Obfuscated]

November 14, 1941 RAF Kallang, Singapore Island

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Not threadmarked?

 

[Marquis]

I "liked" this post, but, this is a gray area for me. Sending them to the US suggests 5" 38cal; these vessels were top heavy with 8 4"HA OTL, the best they could hope for is a HMS Delhi-like refit with 5 guns. How about concentrating on increasing the top speed to vic of 32 kts, improve the electronics suite, radar, directors, etc, and keep the UK type AAA upgrade, pending the arrival of VT fuses for 4" shells? Or, even, US 90mm/Brit 3.7" AA guns? Suspect the latter has logistic consequences...

Agreed, I don't know a lot about the subject, and the C-Class AAs seem to be little researched. What could be done to cut down the masts/superstructures/funnels, reducing topweight and silhouette? Did they still have the torpedo tubes? Additional ballast? Or have they reached their zenith as war-fighting ships? For their age, they served with distinction in the many less glamorous tasks that were the purview of the cruiser, and sadly have so little recognition for their crucial contribution to the war, in which six of the thirteen ships and over six-hundred men paid the ultimate price, a VC being awarded to a member of Coventry's crew (some scumbag stole it in 1990). Truly, until she was decommissioned in 2011, I'd never heard of Caroline.

 

[TonyA]

Agreed, I don't know a lot about the subject, and the C-Class AAs seem to be little researched. What could be done to cut down the masts/superstructures/funnels, reducing topweight and silhouette? Did they still have the torpedo tubes? Additional ballast? Or have they reached their zenith as war-fighting ships? For their age, they served with distinction in the many less glamorous tasks that were the purview of the cruiser, and sadly have so little recognition for their crucial contribution to the war, in which six of the thirteen ships and over six-hundred men paid the ultimate price, a VC being awarded to a member of Coventry's crew (some scumbag stole it in 1990). Truly, until she was decommissioned in 2011, I'd never heard of Caroline.

Always felt that whoever said, "Bombers are a real threat to our fleet, how about converting those old light cruisers to a kind of AAA ship?" is one of the unsung heroes of WW2...imagine their contribution to "supplies" getting through was tremendous.

 

[Marquis]

Always felt that whoever said, "Bombers are a real threat to our fleet, how about converting those old light cruisers to a kind of AAA ship?" is one of the unsung heroes of WW2...imagine their contribution to "supplies" getting through was tremendous.

Often my father and I discussed history. Rather less often we discussed historians, and their ability to take the lives of men and women, who loved and hated, felt fear and overcame it, and turn those lives into numbers and dry facts. These ships were of steel, the products of paper, lead and numbers, but the men who fought them were steel too.

 

[Butchpfd]

Agreed, I don't know a lot about the subject, and the C-Class AAs seem to be little researched. What could be done to cut down the masts/superstructures/funnels, reducing topweight and silhouette? Did they still have the torpedo tubes? Additional ballast? Or have they reached their zenith as war-fighting ships? For their age, they served with distinction in the many less glamorous tasks that were the purview of the cruiser, and sadly have so little recognition for their crucial contribution to the war, in which six of the thirteen ships and over six-hundred men paid the ultimate price, a VC being awarded to a member of Coventry's crew (some scumbag stole it in 1990). Truly, until she was decommissioned in 2011, I'd never heard of Caroline.

My thoughts on this, the torpedo tubes were removed at conversion to AA Cruisers, looking at photos, the only weight reductions could be cutting down the mainmast, and possibly lowering the tripod mast. imo the biggest weakness at this time, was minimal light AA aft, the quad pompom wad in the B mount,and 2 x4 .50 cal Vickers were just aft of the bridge structure, and the 20 mm's , were not yet mounted in all. A trip to American Yards could have resulted in an overhaul of machinery, and improvements in AA fire control. Question is could this have been accomplished in the time frame prior to the outbreak of the war.

 

[TonyA]

How similar were the C's and D's, because the Delhi's conversion was pretty solid by most accounts...

 

[mudhead]

Did they still have the torpedo tubes?

My thoughts on this, the torpedo tubes were removed at conversion to AA Cruisers, looking at photos, the only weight reductions could be cutting down the mainmast, and possibly lowering the tripod mast. imo the biggest weakness at this time, was minimal light AA aft, the quad pompom wad in the B mount,and 2 x4 .50 cal Vickers were just aft of the bridge structure, and the 20 mm's , were not yet mounted in all. A trip to American Yards could have resulted in an overhaul of machinery, and improvements in AA fire control. Question is could this have been accomplished in the time frame prior to the outbreak of the war.

Haven't found anything to indicate that the TT were ever replaced.

There was originally a second quad pom pom aft, but they were removed due to shortage of this system, and replaced by the 2 quad Vickers .50s.

 

[Butchpfd]

Haven't found anything to indicate that the TT were ever replaced.

There was originally a second quad pom pom aft, but they were removed due to shortage of this system, and replaced by the 2 quad Vickers .50s.

. The
I have seen a pretty decent pic of HIS Curacao, from 1942, prior to her sinking and the torpedo tubes were not mounted. The quad.50s were mounted aft of X mount, but none appear to have been mounted by the bridge structure. There is also a midwar photo of HMS Columbo, with dual 4" in both A and B positions with single and dual 20mm mounted aft of midships.

 

[fester]

November 15, 1941 west of Cape Finnesterre

The Martlet did a slow barrel roll five hundred feet over the converted merchant ship. HMS Audacity’s deck division would be busy painting kill markings on the bridge. This convoy had been busy. They were claiming half a U-boat. Her fighters' strafing and bombing forced a U-boat to stay on the surface where it was mobbed by three corvettes of the convoy escort. The Marlet that was just starting to enter the actual landing pattern had claimed another Kondor, this would be the fifth claim of the war for the carrier. These kills did not just protect the ships she was protecting, but all other merchant ships as the ocean would become pragmatically larger as fewer German patrol planes were available to find the convoys. More ships would be able to slip through the nets that the Germans were casting.

Half an hour later, the Martlet pilot had been dismissed from the bridge after a perfunctory dressing down for risking his aircraft, his convoy and his life, in that order for a stupid stunt. Audacity’s captain waited until the young, hostilities only pilot had cleared the bridge before allowing himself a smile. This field expedient idea was actually working. The convoy would continue south and patrols would be launched a few minutes before dawn tomorrow. Until then, the Martlet pilots would be allowed to have a moment or two to celebrate.

 

[mudhead]

Half an hour later, the Martlet pilot had been dismissed from the bridge after a perfunctory dressing down for risking his aircraft, his convoy and his life, in that order for a stupid stunt. Audacity’s captain waited until the young, hostilities only pilot had cleared the bridge before allowing himself a smile.

I must dig out Winkle Brown's autobiography.

 

[fester]

November 15, 1941 Oahu

The air was so much cleaner and crisper her. Josh Jarosheck tightened his mask. Five other Wildcats followed him as their eyes scanned beneath them. A dozen Marine Dauntlesses were slowly taking off from Ewa and they were assembling at 8,000 feet. Ten minutes later, the strike had consolidated and they headed south over the open waters near Pearl Harbor and began climbing. The bombers leveled out at 13,000 feet as the fighters with their throttles eased back scissored above them at 16,000 feet. For the next hour, they flew to Maui before turning around. The strike was supposed to be in radio silence but several times stragglers had to be chivvied back into formation.

As the bombers headed back to the northwest, the fighters saw four Army Air Corps P-40s near Waimanalo Beach. He tightened his mask and moved his engine mixture to rich as the stubby fighter accelerated into a dive. The other five fighters followed him down. The bombers proceeded in tight formation as the surprised Army fighters broke for the deck. Four minutes later, half a dozen more P-40s jumped the bombers as there were no longer any escorts available.

The Army pilots would claim that the decoy flight had been able to escape without damage while the Marine fighter pilots were claiming a pair of kills. The second interception flight would brag that they had destroyed half the Marine dive bombers. The rear gunners would say hours later that they got at least three of the Army fighters. After the bombers were intercepted, they tipped over and dropped their inert, dummy bombs on the training ranges at the Marine Corps base at Kaneahoe Bay. The 2nd Marine Brigade had asked for support and their air controllers were able to guide the bombers in to hit the two southern-most targets on the range.

As the disrupted air raid landed at Ewa, Joshua was cursing to himself. The low-level Army fighters were an obvious decoy. He should have left a section of Wildcats with the bombers while he led his wingman and another element in a single slashing bounce pass. Two fighters would not be enough to save the bombers, but they could have fought long enough to give the rest of the escort a chance to rejoin the furball.

 

[fester]

November 15, 1941 Surabaya Java, Dutch East Indies

USS Langley’s deck was clear again as the last Buffalo was winched down to the dock. Unloading the forty two aircraft had taken over two days as there was only one crane available. Two other cranes were waiting for spare parts while the last remaining set of cranes were busy unloading a pair of merchant ships with heavy equipment for the KNIL.

Langley would depart on the 20th on the long slow journey back to Pearl Harbor. The entire trip she would be shielded by a series of islands held by friendly powers and kept away from prying Japanese eyes.

 

[fester]

As a writing note, I am entering where this story originally started in my mind November 1941-March 1942. Some of the updates are some of the earliest chunks written of this saga, so please be aware of changes in style and continuity issues. If you see a continuity issue, please tell me so I can update.

I really need to go back through my Malayan and Luzon campaigns so there are probably going to be errors here. I appreciate your patience on this.

 

[Marquis]

As a writing note, I am entering where this story originally started in my mind November 1941-March 1942. Some of the updates are some of the earliest chunks written of this saga, so please be aware of changes in style and continuity issues. If you see a continuity issue, please tell me so I can update.

I really need to go back through my Malayan and Luzon campaigns so there are probably going to be errors here. I appreciate your patience on this.

Is it worth putting a temporary hiatus on this, and going through your previous posts to check them? Could even publish a timeline-only thread as you work your way through it.

 

[Oldbill]

Take your time Fester. This TL is one of the highlights of the day for a lot of us. Patience (at least with a very good TL) is always rewarded.

 

[fester]

Is it worth putting a temporary hiatus on this, and going through your previous posts to check them? Could even publish a timeline-only thread as you work your way through it.

As I am updating the story, most of the elements that led to the divergences from OTL to TTL are well explained. However, the RN not be forced to stick its face into an automated punching bag in the Med plus a better North Africa campaign was a butterfly I did not anticipate in early 2016 when I started writing this story. I had the Malayan campaign in the timeline echo most of the Malayan campaign in OTL with a few small exceptions but as I keep on writing and the butterflies keep on moving, that is completely implausible within the universe I've created. Six Commonwealth divisions including a pair of veteran divisions is a very different Malayan Campaign than OTL and that does not include the movement of Monty to Malaya. And once Malaya changes, the Philippines has to change as well even without any other changes that have occurred.

I was just thinking about this as the Langley passages were some of my first back-story passages.

Tatiana was a character that came to me mid-summer 2017. Anna Marie was an afterthought when this started. Ibling and Cabling on Luzon were characters that I had no idea that they would demand more time. I think Josh Jaroschek was going to be the viewpoint character or at least an intersectional character where his war would be a dominant prism for most personal viewpoint updates. I thought Lt. Kauffman or Capt. Hosey would have popped up again by now.

I think I know where this story is moving but the characters are still yelling at me while others have meandered into their own stories 40,000 words ago and aren't coming back.