Keynes' Cruisers

Status
Not open for further replies.
I might need to revise as I have her pencilled in to be in Norfolk on Pearl Harbor day

IIRC correctly (and according to a quick check via Wikipedia I do) she was nearly there in OTL.
But that was Dec 9, returning to pick up more aircraft after working up for 8 weeks in the Caribbean.

this is your TL and you can certainly put her anywhere that is consistent with her TTL activities
but IMHO you ought to provide a reasonably plausible reason for her to be there.

Later thought: it may be easier to use her sister HMS Formidable.
She too was sent to Norfolk but later in 41 after somewhat lesser damages also taken in the Eastern Med.
Now TTL may be different, but as has been previously noted it will still be a hard AO
so perhaps some repair might be needed in the same time frame.

OTL Formidable departed in mid-December in company with Illustrious.
Unfortunately in an Atlantic storm they collided, undoing some of Norfolk's good work on both vessels. (Nothing major but weeks lost in both cases).

So please put Illustrious elsewhere and let the RN get a double gain.
 
Last edited:
Updated damage to Illustrious with an additional bomb and more realistic inferno in the hangar deck.

Authors choice, but , be aware that in FlgK X's original attack at sea you now have
  • significantly less attackers with marginally less experience

  • against more defenders with both better equipment and experience
Yet they
  • achieve nearly the same number of hits
    (not counting those from later attacks that same day or the Blitz at Valetta of course)

  • which strangely do relatively more damage though OTL included some "golden BBs"

Perhaps it's just me, but this seems a bit unlikely and even inconsistent.

For example, lesser damage kills twice as many crew and presumably also injures twice as many.
This would mean over 400 casualties on that day, around 33% of the crew.
 
Last edited:
Authors choice, but , be aware that in FlgK X's original attack at sea you now have
Yet they
  • achieve nearly the same number of hits
    (not counting those from later attacks that same day or the Blitz at Valetta of course)

  • which strangely do relatively more damage though OTL included some "golden BBs"

Yep, sometimes the Germans get lucky. If you read through the rest of the piece, the Axis claimed another destroyer over what they sank in OTL.

And you're going to hate what happens at the end of January.
 
Yep, sometimes the Germans get lucky. If you read through the rest of the piece, the Axis claimed another destroyer over what they sank in OTL.

And you're going to hate what happens at the end of January.

as I said, Authors choice

However FlgK X already had more than it's fair share of luck with the placement and results of its hits in it's initial

In such circumstances, when you give them more good fortune without any plausible justification,
apparently because you want to create a minor conjunction a full year ahead in your story,
then IMHO the result verges on ASB and mars your otherwise fine work.
 
as I said, Authors choice

However FlgK X already had more than it's fair share of luck with the placement and results of its hits in it's initial

In such circumstances, when you give them more good fortune without any plausible justification,
apparently because you want to create a minor conjunction a full year ahead in your story,
then IMHO the result verges on ASB and mars your otherwise fine work.
I agree that this sounds like you're unnecessarily forcing the issue here. Lusty could easily fall afoul of a returning Italian sub later in the story, which would be a plausible way to achieve your goal.
 
I agree that this sounds like you're unnecessarily forcing the issue here. Lusty could easily fall afoul of a returning Italian sub later in the story, which would be a plausible way to achieve your goal.
I'm replacing Lusty for February 1942 with someone else... all else being equal she is out of Norfolk late summer 1941.
 
Story 0448
January 11, 1941 North Atlantic

HMS Queen Elizabeth was again a warship. She had been released from the yards a month ago and her guns had been strong, long and true even as her crewed was worked back up again to peak efficacy. The mission, her first mission back with the Fleet, was to escort a large convoy of mostly ballasted merchant ships to Canada and then steam to Boston in order to drop off the new ambassador, Lord Halifax. Thirty seven ships were her charge. Most were survivors of at least three journeys to west coast ports since the war. A quartet of lighter escorts paced the outer perimeter as they hunted for U-boats, the silent killers whose presence was often announced with a flaming ship. So far, none had been seen near the convoy.

A single Walrus amphibian circled the force. The seaplane was mainly flying to work on procedure for radio-less spotting corrections as the pilot and observer were new men, fresh from training programs and the gun crews had not built the trust needed yet. They were also on the lookout for submarines but they had seen nothing yet as the convoy headed into yet another line of snow squalls.

Off, two points to starboard there was a pair of bumps on the horizon. They were maybe twenty miles from the convoy. The pilot pulled up to gain altitude and entered into a pylon turn as the observer looked through his binoculars

“Triple Turrets, two forward, one aft, big, pole mast… mate, those are battle cuisers” Radio silence was broken as the pilot called in the sighting.

The Walrus continued its turn as coordinated chaos began beneath it. The convoy and two corvettes as escorts started to turn south. A destroyer, a sloop and Queen Elizabeth surged forward towards the threat. The four turrets were quickly manned and the heavy guns reached their maximum elevation. Even as the escorts prepared for battle, the two Germans also began to prepare for battle. The lead ship unfurled a thirty meter long battle flag and white clouds of steam escaped from the stacks as speed was brought up. They angled slightly to cut across the path of Queen Elizabeth, one ship five hundred yards closer to the convoy than the other, trailing ship in echelon.

Minutes later, the range had closed to twenty nine thousand yards. Queen Elizabeth was in range with her new guns in her new turrets. Her unmodernized sisters would still be waiting. The four guns of her forward turrets barked in unison. 7,700 pounds of steel and explosives arced skyward. The blast of the guns could not be hidden as the two German battle cruisers had dozens of men looking intently to the south east where they knew a convoy had to be if there was a Walrus amphibian radioing their location. The guns gave the position of the size of the escort away even as they had been detected as fuzz on the radar. No destroyer would shoot from that far away. No cruiser would shoot from that far away. Both types would try to sneak as close as possible to threaten heavy raiders with torpedoes. An armed merchant cruiser would be wallowing in the heavy seas. Only a battleship would challenge them from fifteen miles.

The shells had tipped over and screamed as gravity asserted its power over them. They dove fast, fighting the thickening air. One hundred yard high splashes provided a clear correction for the Walrus.

“Short nine hundred, right eight hundred”

Fifteen seconds later, the rear turrets fired.

By the time those fifteen inch shells hit the sea four hundred yards short and three hundred yards to the right of the lead ship, the two German raiders had already started a sharp turn to disappear into the murky emptiness of the storm tossed North Atlantic.
 
Last edited:
Story 0449
January 12, 1941 Bristol

Six troopers were loading men. Lancastria was flying the commodore’s flag for this part of another Winston Special convoy. The troopers would be escorted to Freetown by HMS Renown, HMAS Australia and HMS Emerald. After that, Renown would resume raider hunting, leaving the cruisers to cover the fast liners as they made a high speed run to Cape Town and then Mombasa before being re-escorted all the way to Port Said. The slower ships containing the equipment of the 50th Division had already left and would arrive a few days after the liners had unloaded in Egypt.
 
Story 0450
January 13, 1941 Central Atlantic

Hipper had not seen a ship in two weeks. She had been chased away from a convoy by a pair of British cruisers just after Christmas and since then, his captain had decided to find a new hunting ground. The Central Atlantic was it. He was in a spot where no land based aircraft could find him except by accident on ferry flights. Now he just needed to find prey before he was forced to return to Brest.
 
Last edited:
January 12, 1941 Bristol

Six troopers were loading men. Lancastria was flying the commodore’s flag for this part of another Winston Special convoy. The troopers would be escorted to Freetown by HMS Renown, HMAS Australia and HMS Emerald. After that, Renown would resume raider hunting, leaving the cruisers to cover the fast liners as they made a high speed run to Cape Town and then Mombasa before being re-escorted all the way to Port Said. The slower ships containing the equipment of the 50th Division had already left and would arrive a few days after the liners had unloaded in Egypt.

another of your minor deviations with hidden consequences

by saving SS Lancastria in June 1940, you also preserved the ~ 5,000 souls lost with her...
some were outright civilians, others support personnel but around 2,000 were front line soldiers.

On this new journey she will not be packed so even if lost with all hands and passengers,
that is 3,000 saved including some with very special skills e.g. air industry staff fleeing Belgium.
 
another of your minor deviations with hidden consequences

by saving SS Lancastria in June 1940, you also preserved the ~ 5,000 souls lost with her...
some were outright civilians, others support personnel but around 2,000 were front line soldiers.

On this new journey she will not be packed so even if lost with all hands and passengers,
that is 3,000 saved including some with very special skills e.g. air industry staff fleeing Belgium.
Winston Specials were pretty safe convoys to be in. They were fast and heavily escorted. Lancastria will make it to the end of this journey with no more damage than typical storm damage plus that which can be inflicted by some privates with time on their hand and NCO's who aren't as active as they should be.
 
January 11, 1941 North Atlantic

HMS Queen Elizabeth was again a warship. She had been released from the yards a month ago and her guns had been strong, long and true even as her crewed was worked back up again to peak efficacy. The mission, her first mission back with the Fleet, was to escort a large convoy of mostly ballasted merchant ships to Canada and then steam to Boston in order to drop off the new ambassador, Lord Halifax. Thirty seven ships were her charge. Most were survivors of at least three journeys to west coast ports since the war. A quartet of lighter escorts paced the outer perimeter as they hunted for U-boats, the silent killers whose presence was often announced with a flaming ship. So far, none had been seen near the convoy.

A single Walrus amphibian circled the force. The seaplane was mainly flying to work on procedure for radio-less spotting corrections as the pilot and observer were new men, fresh from training programs and the gun crews had not built the trust needed yet. They were also on the lookout for submarines but they had seen nothing yet as the convoy headed into yet another line of snow squalls.

Off, two points to starboard there was a pair of bumps on the horizon. They were maybe twenty miles from the convoy. The pilot pulled up to gain altitude and entered into a pylon turn as the observer looked through his binoculars

“Triple Turrets, two forward, one aft, big, pole mast… mate, those are battle cuisers” Radio silence was broken as the pilot called in the sighting.

The Walrus continued its turn as coordinated chaos began beneath it. The convoy and two corvettes as escorts started to turn south. A destroyer, a sloop and Queen Elizabeth surged forward towards the threat. The four turrets were quickly manned and the heavy guns reached their maximum elevation. Even as the escorts prepared for battle, the two Germans also began to prepare for battle. The lead ship unfurled a thirty meter long battle flag and white clouds of steam escaped from the stacks as speed was brought up. They angled slightly to cut across the path of Queen Elizabeth, one ship five hundred yards closer to the convoy than the other, trailing ship in echelon.

Minutes later, the range had closed to twenty nine thousand yards. Queen Elizabeth was in range with her new guns in her new turrets. Her unmodernized sisters would still be waiting. The four guns of her forward turrets barked in unison. 7,700 pounds of steel and explosives arced skyward. The blast of the guns could not be hidden as the two German battle cruisers had dozens of men looking intently to the south east where they knew a convoy had to be if there was a Walrus amphibian radioing their location. The guns gave the position of the size of the escort away even as they had been detected as fuzz on the radar. No destroyer would shoot from that far away. No cruiser would shoot from that far away. Both types would try to sneak as close as possible to threaten heavy raiders with torpedoes. An armed merchant cruiser would be wallowing in the heavy seas. Only a battleship would challenge them from fifteen miles.

The shells had tipped over and screamed as gravity asserted its power over them. They dove fast, fighting the thickening air. One hundred yard high splashes provided a clear correction for the Walrus.

“Short nine hundred, right eight hundred”

Fifteen seconds later, the rear turrets fired.

By the time those fifteen inch shells hit the sea four hundred yards short and three hundred yards to the right of the lead ship, the two German raiders had already started a sharp turn to disappear into the murky emptiness of the storm tossed North Atlantic.

Another BB on raiders encounter. This time with plausible reactions on both sides , but again not sure about the range.

29K is quite long visibility for the "storm tossed Atlantic" in mid winter let alone optical fire control.

IIRC in OTL the twins closed to < 25K on at least two occasions before withdrawing.
 
Another BB on raiders encounter. This time with plausible reactions on both sides , but again not sure about the range.

29K is quite long visibility for the "storm tossed Atlantic" in mid winter let alone optical fire control.

IIRC in OTL the twins closed to < 25K on at least two occasions before withdrawing.
picked up by a patrol plane that is trained as a spotter...

I'm trying to hat tip the the Twins vs. Ramillies on OTL 2/8/41 encounter with the same basic result .. the Twins pull away as soon as they confirm a battleship is in escort
 
Last edited:
Winston Specials were pretty safe convoys to be in. They were fast and heavily escorted. Lancastria will make it to the end of this journey with no more damage than typical storm damage plus that which can be inflicted by some privates with time on their hand and NCO's who aren't as active as they should be.
It's going to burn down to the water line, isn't it?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top