Jutland Redux- A shattering summer solstice

[johnboy]

0200, Jade estuary, German Empire, 22 June 1916

After the disappointing results of the 31st May, when two out of three ships of the 6th Division had almost grounded and subsequently fouled their condensers, the operation had been cancelled and rescheduled until the 20th June, subsequently amended to the 22nd.

It had allowed him to add some extra ships to his order of battle, most notably the Koenig Albert and the newly completed Bayern, the letter only manned by the transfer of the crew from the newly decommissioned old pre dreadnaught Lothringen.

The plans was simple enough, indeed it represented his basic strategy ever since he had taken over command of the High Seas Fleet in January 1916 from the perennially cautious Hugo von Pohl. Scheer was well aware that he could not match the Grand Fleet for sheer numbers, even taking into consideration British naval deployments in the Mediterranean. With the Baltic activities of the Russians curtailed, Scheer had gathered as much of the High Seas Fleet as possible for the operation in an attempt to draw forth and trap part of the Grand Fleet and destroy it comprehensively, namely David Beatty's battlecruiser force, hopefully the Harwich Force as well.

The unfortunate cancellation of the May operation had meant that the submarine forces available to lie off the major British bases were not as they had been a month ago, but in essence the plan was unchanged. Hipper had already sortied at 0030 with the 1st and 2nd Scouting Groups, consisting of five battlecruisers, four light cruisers and 32 torpedo boats.

They were to bombard Sunderland and draw David Beatty's battlecruiser force South from the Firth of Forth. Hipper was then to lead the battlecruiser force back onto the guns of Scheer's High Seas Fleet, which would be waiting 45-50 miles off Flanborough Head. He had originally counted on Zeppelin intelligence, however, June 1916 had been a month of extremely poor summer weather, with a maximum four days running of 8 degrees Celsius in Hamburg. Forecast for the day were only modest, with gusting winds, all of which would hamper Zeppelin operations.

The last month had not been a kind one for the Central Powers, Russia destroying Austro-Hungary's armies in Galacia and the Ottomans also in retreat in the East. A victory was badly needed.

For that reason alone, Scheer had pulled together as much fighting power as possible. After Hipper had drawn the British scouting forces South, they would be confronted with 18 dreadnoughts, seven pre dreadnoughts, one armoured cruiser, 13 light cruisers and 49 torpedo boats.

This had been the original plan, however, with zeppelin reconnaissance likely not a possibility, Scheer had amended it to encompass Hipper's forces converging on the Skaggerak, engaging and destroying any commerce and Royal Navy patrols that frequented the area. He was hopeful this would lure part of the British fleet out to drive his forces away. The High Seas Fleet could then overwhelm this under gunned force in waters much closer to home, their flanks covered by light forces and their relatively short path to retreat assured.

In all total forces were:

1. Battlecruiser force, Vice Admiral Franz von Hipper

I Scouting Group
Vizeadmiral Franz von Hipper, 1. Admiralstabsoffizier Korvettenkapitän Erich Raeder
SMS Lützow, flag, Vizeadmiral Franz von Hipper, Kapitän zur See Harder
SMS Derflinger, Kapitän zur See Hartog
SMS Seydlitz, Kapitän zur See von Egidy
SMS Moltke, Kapitän zur See Harpf
SMS von der Tann, Kapitän zur See Zenker

IXth Flotilla
V 28, Kapitänleutnant Lenßen hoisting Korvettenkapitän Goehle (Flottila-Leader) - screening 1SG
IXth Flotilla, 17th Half Flotilla
V27, V28, V26, S36, S51, S52

IXth Flotilla, 18th Half Flotilla
V30, Oberleutnant zur See Ernst Wolf hoisting Korvettenkapitän Werner Tillessen (flag)
S34, S33, V29, S35, V30

IInd Scouting Group
Konteradmiral F. Boedicker
SMS Frankfurt, Kapitän zur See Thilo von Trotha hoisting Konteradmiral F. Boedicker (flag)
SMS Pillau, Fregattenkapitän Konrad Mommsen
SMS Elbing, Fregattenkapitän Madlung
SMS Wiesbaden, Fregattenkapitän Reiß

IInd Flotilla
B98, Kapitänleutnant Theodor Hengstenberg hoisting Fregattenkapitän Schuur (flag)
IInd Flotilla, 3rd Half Flotilla
Korvettenkapitän Boest (flag) on B 98
B98, G101, G102, B112, B97, S49, V43

IInd Flotilla, 4th Half Flotilla
Korvettenkapitän Dithmar (flag) on B 109
B109, B110, B111, G103, G104

VIth Flotilla
G41 Kapitänleutnant Hermann Boehm hoisting Korvettenkapitän Max Schultz (flag)
VIth Flotilla, 11th Half Flotilla, Kapitänleutnant Wilhelm Rümann on G 41
G41, V44, G87, G86

VIth Flotilla, 12th Half Flotilla
V69, Kapitänleutnant Stecher hoisting Kapitänleutnant Lahs (flag)
V69, V45, V46, S50, G37

2. High Seas Fleet, Main Body
Chef der Hochseestreitkräfte:Vizeadmiral Reinhard Scheer
Chef des Stabes: Kapitän zur See Adolf von Trotha
Chef der Operationsabteilung: Kapitän zur See von Levezow

IIIrd Squadron, 5th Division
Konteradmiral Paul Behncke, 1. Admiralstabsoffizier Korvettenkapitän Freiherr von Sagern
SMS König flag, Kapitän zur See Brüninghaus
SMS Grosser Kurfürst, Kapitän zur See Goette
SMS Markgraf, Kapitän zur See Seiferling
SMS Kronprinz, Kapitän zur See Konstanz Feldt

IIIrd Squadron, 6th Division
Konteradmiral H. Nordmann (2nd Admiral of IIIrd Squadron)
SMS Kaiser, flag, Konteradmiral H. Nordmann, Kapitän zur See Freiherr von Keyserlingk
SMS Prinzregent Luitpold, Kapitän zur See Heuser
SMS Koenig Albert, Kapitän zur See Gaskell
SMS Kaiserin, Kapitän zur See Sievers
SMS Bayern, Kapitän zur See Max Hahn

Flottenflaggschiff: SMS Friedrich der Große, Kapitän zur See Theodor Fuchs (not in squadron or divisional organisation)

Ist Squadron, 1st Division
Vizeadmiral E. Schmidt, 1. Admiralstabsoffizier Korvettenkapitän Wolfgang Wegener
SMS Ostfriesland flag, Vizeadmiral Schmidt, Kapitän zur See von Natzmer
SMS Thüringen, Kapitän zur See Hans Küsel
SMS Helgoland, Kapitän zur See von Kamecke
SMS Oldenburg, Kapitän zur See Höpfner

Ist Squadron, 2nd Division
Konteradmiral W. Engelhart (2nd Admiral of Ist Squadron)
SMS Posen, flag, Konteradmiral Engelhart, Kapitän zur See Richard Lange
SMS Rheinland, Kapitän zur See Rohardt
SMS Nassau, Kapitän zur See von Schlee
SMS Westfalen, Kapitän zur See Redlich

Vth Scouting Group
Kommodore L. von Reuter, Admiralstabsoffizier Korvettenkapitän Heinrich Weber
SMS Stettin, Fregattenkapitän Friedrich Rebensburg
SMS Stuttgart, Fregattenkapitän Hagedorn
SMS Graudenz, Fregattenkapitän von Steiglitz
SMS Straslund, Fregattenkapitän Boller
SMS Brummer, Fregattenkapitän Drygala

IInd Squadron
Konteradmiral F. Mauve
IInd Squadron, 3rd Division
Konteradmiral Mauve, 1. Admiralstabsoffizier Korvettenkapitän Kahlert
SMS Deutschland, flag, Konteradmiral Mauve, Kapitän zur See Meurer
SMS Pommern, Kapitän zur See Bölken
SMS Pruessen, Kapitän zur See Lammers
SMS Schlesien, Kapitän zur See Fr. Behncke

IInd Squadron, IVth Division
Konteradmiral Freiherr F. von Dalwigk zu Lichtenfels (2nd Admiral of IInd Squadron)
SMS Schleswig-Holstein, Kapitän zur See Barrentrapp
SMS Hessen, Kapitän zur See Bartels
SMS Hannover, flag, Konteradmiral Baron von Dalwigk zu Lichtenfels, Kapitän zur See Wilhelm Heine
SMS Roon, Kapitän zur See Wilhelm von Karpf

IVth Scouting Group
SMS München, Korvettenkapitän Oscar Böcker
SMS Frauenlob, Fregattenkapitän Georg Hoffman
SMS Berlin, Fregattenkapitän Hahn
SMS Lubeck, Fregattenkapitän Priilowitz
SMS Danzig, Fregattenkapitän Wagner

Attached IVth Scouting Group
SMS Hamburg, Kapitän zur SeeBauer, Leader of Submarines

1st Leader of Destroyers
Kommodore A. Michelsen, Admiralstabsoffizier Korvettenkapitän Junkermann
SMS Rostock, Kommodore A. Michelsen, Fregattenkapitän Otto Feldmann

2nd Leader of Destroyers
Kommodore P. Heinrich, Admiralstabsoffizier Kapitänleutnant Meier
SMS Regensburg, Kommodore P. Heinrich, Fregattenkapitän Heuberer

Ist Flotilla, 1st Half Flotilla
Kapitänleutnant Conrad Albrecht (flag) on G39
G38, G39, G40, S32, V170, G197

Ist Flotilla, 2nd Half Flotilla
G192, G195, G196, G193

IIIrd Flotilla
S53, Kapitänleutnant Friedrich Götting hoisting Korvettenkapitän Hollman (flag)
IIIrd Flotilla, 5th Half Flotilla
V71, V73, G88, V74, V70

IIIrd Flotilla, 6th Half Flotilla
Kapitänleutnant Fröhlich
S54, V48, G42, G85, S55

Vth Flotilla
G11, Kapitänleutnant Adolf Müller hosting Korvettenkapitän Heinecke (flag)
Vth Flotilla, 9th Half Flotilla
Kapitänleutnant von Pohl
V2, V4, V6, V1, V3

Vth Flotilla, 10th Half Flotilla
G8, Oberleutnant zur See Rodenberg hosting KapitänleutnantFriedrich Klein
G7, V5, G9, G10, G8

VIIth Flotilla
S24 Kapitänleutnant Fink hoisting Korvettenkapitän von Koch (flag)
VIIth Flotilla, 13th Half Flotilla
Kapitänleutnant G. von Zitzewitz on S15
S15, S17, S20, S16, S18, S24

VIIth Flotilla, 14th Half Flotilla
Korvettenkapitän Hermann Cordes
S19, Oberleutnant zur See Reimer hoisting Korvettenkapitän Hermann Cordes
S19, S23, V189, V186

XIth Flotilla, 21st Half Flotilla
Kapitänleutnant G. von Bulow on S59
S59, S58, S57, G89, G90

XIth Flotilla, 22nd Half Flotilla
Korvettenkapitän H.Curnow
V75, V76, V77, V78

In all, it represented five battlecruisers, 18 dreadnoughts, seven pre dreadnoughts, one armoured cruiser, 17 light cruisers and 81 torpedo boats, almost all of the High Seas Fleet's strength, in all fully 119 ships of war.

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

Interesting. However, as OTL I guess Scheer has some Uboats near the British ports.

 

[Mrstrategy]

Nice lets see how well the British are at breaking messages

 

[johnboy]

0215 40 nautical miles Northeast of Rosyth, 22 June 1916

Beatty was at sea with three battle-cruiser and three light cruiser squadrons. Forewarned by Room 40 interceptions of German naval communication, his force had followed Jellicoe's Grand Fleet from Scapa Flow. The Grand Fleet had seemingly put to sea without incident. His own force had not been so lucky. For the last month, concerned by the possibility of German U Boats laying in wait of major fleet bases, particularly Rosyth, he had adopted an arrangement on Jellicoe's suggestion. This had been the sailing of the pre dreadnought HMS Albemarle up to 30 minutes ahead of his battlecruisers. As he had prepared to leave on the previous by the Albemarle had taken two torpedoes from a German U Boat, itself sunk by ramming from an escorting destroyer. The old pre dreadnought had slowly settled, a fate that may have befallen some of his more modern ships.

Beatty wondered if, unlike the warnings of the 31st May, the Germans would actually put to sea this time. He was eager to come to grips with them after the disappointments of the Battle of Dogger Bank. His was a substantial force, bolstered by the return of HMAS Australia from a refit. It consisted of:

1. Battle Cruiser Force, Vice Admiral Sir David Beatty, Rosyth

1BCS
HMS Lion, flag, Vice Admiral Sir David Beatty, VABCS, Captain A.E.M. Chatfield
HMS Princess Royal, flag, Rear Admiral O.de Brock, RA1BCS, Captain W.H. Cowan
HMS Queen Mary, Captain C.I. Prowse
HMS Tiger, Captain H.B. Pelly

2BCS
HMAS Australia, Capt. S.H. Radcliffe flag Rear Admiral W.C. Packenham, RA2BCS
HMS New Zealand, Captain H.Green
HMS Indefatigable, Captain C.A. Selby

3BCS
HMS Invincible, flag, Rear Admiral the Hon. H.A. Hood, RA3BCS, Captain A.L. Cay
HMS Inflexible, Captain EHF Heaton-Ellis
HMS Indomitable, Captain F.W. Kennedy

1LCS
HMS Galatea, flag, Commodore E.S. Alexander-Sinclair, Cmdre 1LCS
HMS Phaeton, Commander JE Cameron
HMS Inconstant, Capt. BS Thesiger
HMS Cordelia, Capt. TPH Beamish

2LCS
HMS Southampton, flag, Commodore W.E. Goodenough, Cmdre, 2LCS
HMS Birmingham, Captain A.A.M. Duff
HMS Nottingham, Captain C.B. Miller
HMS Dublin, Captain A.C. Scott

3LCS
HMS Falmouth, flag, Rear Admiral TDW. Napier, RA3LCS, Captain J.D. Edwards
HMS Yarmouth, Captain T.D. Pratt, (linking ship between light cruiser screen and VABCF)
HMS Birkenhead, Capt. E Reeves
HMS Gloucester, Capt. WF Blunt
HMS Chester, Captain R.N. Lawson

Seaplane carrier
HMS Engadine, Lt.Commander C.G. Robinson (4 Short Type 184 seaplanes)
HMS Onslow and HMS Moresby detached from 1DF to escort HMS Engadine

13 DF screening 1BCS:
HMS Champion, Captain J.U. Farie (D.13)

16 Admiralty M Class destroyers:
HMS Nestor, HMS Nomad, HMS Narborough, HMS Obdurate, HMS Petard, HMS Pelican, HMS Onslow, HMS Moresby, HMS Nicator, HMS Negro, HMS Nereus,HMS Paladin, HMS Pidgeon, HMS Penn, HMS Nepean, HMS Observer
1 Yarrow M Class destroyer:
HMS Nerissa

10DF (part, detached from Harwich Force), screening 1BCS

2 Talisman Class destroyers
HMS Turbulent, TMS Termagant

9DF (part, detached from Harwich Force), screening 2BCS
4 L Class destroyers
HMS Lydiard, HMS Liberty, HMS Landrail, HMS Laurel

In all, not counting the forces allocated to his scouting seaplane carrier, he had fully ten battle-cruisers, 13 light cruisers and 24 destroyers. This was to be backed by Jellicoe's massive Grand Fleet, consisting of:

Grand Fleet, Admiral Sir John Jellicoe, Scapa Flow

2BS, 1st Division, Cromarty
HMS King George V, flag, Sir Martyn Jerram, VA2BS
HMS Ajax, Capt. GH Baird
HMS Centurion, Capt. M Culme-Seymour
HMS Erin, Capt. VA Stanley

2BS, 2nd Division, Cromarty
HMS Monarch, flag Rear Admiral Arthur Leveson, RA2BS
HMS Conqueror, Capt. HHD Tothill
HMS Orion, Capt. O Backhouse
HMS Thunderer, Captain J.A. Ferguson

Attached 2BS
HMS Boadicea, Captain L.C.S. Woollcombe

4BS, 3rd Division, Scapa Flow
HMS Iron Duke, flag, Admiral Sir John Jellicoe, CinCGF, Captain F.W. Dreyer
HMS Emperor of India, Capt. C.W.R. Royds
HMS Royal Oak, Capt. C. MacLachlan
HMS Superb, flag Rear Admiral Duff, RA4BS, Capt. E Hyde-Parker
HMS Canada, Capt. WCM Nicholson

Attached Fleet Flagship:
HMS Active, Captain P.Withers

Tender to HMS Iron Duke:
HMS Oak, LtCdr. D Faviell (Destroyer Tender to the Flagship)

Marksman class destroyer-minelayer:
HMS Abdiel, Commander Curtis

4BS, 4th Division, Scapa Flow
HMS Benbow, flag, Vice Admiral Sir Doveton Sturdee, VA4BS; Capt. HW Parker
HMS Bellerophon, Capt. EF Bruen
HMS Temeraire, Capt. EV Underhill
HMS Vanguard, Capt. JD Dick

Attached 4BS
HMS Blanche, Captain J.M. Casement
HMS Blonde, Commander J.E.A. Mocatta

1BS, 5th Division, Scapa Flow
HMS Colossus, flag, Rear Admiral E.F.A. Gaunt, RA1BS, Captain A.D.P.R. Pound
HMS Collingwood, Capt. JC Ley
HMS Neptune, Capt. VHG Bernard
HMS St. Vincent, Captain W.W. Fisher

1BS, 6th Division,
HMS Marlborough, flag Vice Admiral Sir Cecil Burney, VA1BS, Captain G.P. Ross
HMS Revenge, Capt. ES Kiddle
HMS Royal Sovereign, Capt. A.T. Hunt
HMS Hercules, Captain Clinton-Baker
HMS Agincourt, Capt. HM Doughty

5BS, Rosyth, from Scapa Flow
13th Subdivision:
HMS Barham, flag, Rear Admiral Hugh Evans-Thomas, RA5BS, Captain A.W.C. Waller
HMS Valiant, Captain M. Woollcombe
14th Subdivision:
HMS Warspite, Captain E. Phillpotts
HMS Malaya, Captain the Hon. A.D.E.H. Boyle
HMS Queen Elizabeth, Capt. G.P.W. Hope

1DF, screening 5BS
HMS Fearless, Captain C.D. Roper, Captain (D.1)
I Class destroyers:
HMS Acheron, HMS Ariel, HMS Attack, HMS Hydra, HMS Badger, HMS Goshawk, HMS Defender, HMS Lizard, HMS Lapwing, HMS Botha, HMS Jackal, HMS Phoenix, HMS Archer, HMS Tigress

Attached 1BS:
HMS Bellona, Captain A.B.S. Dutton

1CS, Cromarty
HMS Defence, flag Rear Admiral Sir Robert Arbuthnot, Bt., RA1CS, Captain S.V. Ellis
HMS Warrior, Captain V.B. Molteno
HMS Duke of Edinburgh, Captain H. Blackett
HMS Black Prince, Captain T.P. Bonham

2CS, Scapa Flow
HMS Minotaur, flag, Rear Admiral H.L. Heath, RA2CS, Captain C.S.H. D’Aeth
HMS Hampshire, Capt. HJ Savill
HMS Cochrane, Capt. E la T Leatham
HMS Shannon, Capt. JS Dumaresq
HMS Achilles, Capt. F.M. Leake
HMS Donegal, Capt. W.H. D'Oyly

4LCS, Scapa Flow
HMS Calliope, flag, Commodore C.E. le Mesurier, Cmdre, 4LCS
HMS Constance, Capt. CS Townsend
HMS Comus, Capt. AG Hotham
HMS Caroline, Captain HR Crooke
HMS Royalist, Capt. H Meade
HMS Cambrian, Capt AH Read

4DF, Scapa Flow
Destroyer leaders:
HMS Tipperary, flag, Captain C.J. Wintour (D.4)
HMS Broke, Commander AL Wilson

1 Admiralty M Class
HMS Ophelia, Commander LGE Crabbe (escorting 3BCS)
16 K Class destroyers
HMS Achates, HMS Porpoise, HMS Spitfire, HMS Unity, HMS Garland, HMS Ambuscade, HMS Ardent, HMS Fortune, HMS Sparrowhawk, HMS Contest,
HMS Shark, HMS Acasta, HMS Christopher, HMS Owl, HMS Hardy, HMS Midge, HMS Cockatrice, HMS Victor, HMS Paragon

11DF, Scapa Flow
HMS Castor, Commodore J.R.P. Hawksley, Commodore (F)

Destroyer leader:
HMS Kempenfelt, Commander HE Sullivan

13 Admiralty M Class destroyers
HMS Ossory, HMS Mystic, HMS Magic, HMS Mandate, HMS Minion, HMS Martial, HMS Milbrook, HMS Marne, HMS Manners, HMS Michael, HMS Mons, HMS Marmion, HMS Musketeer

3 Yarrow M Class destroyers
HMS Morning Star, HMS Mounsey, HMS Moonvin

12DF, Scapa Flow
Destroyer leaders:
HMS Faulknor, Captain A.J.B. Stirling, D.12
HMS Marksman, Cdr. NA Sullivan (Flag, 2nd Half Flotilla)

16 Admiralty M Class destroyers
HMS Obedient, HMS Maenad, HMS Opal, HMS Mary Rose, HMS Marvel, HMS Menace, HMS Nessus, HMS Narwhal, HMS Mindful, HMS Onslaught, HMS Munster, HMS Nonsuch, HMS Nobel, HMS Mischief, HMS Napier, HMS Mameluke

Seaplane carrier (Scapa Flow):
HMS Campania, Captain O. Schwann, 10 aircraft

In all, 31 dreadnoughts, 10 armoured cruisers, 10 light cruisers and 73 destroyers. Also in support was the Harwich Force of 5 light cruisers and 29 destroyers, consisting of:

5LCS
HMS Carysfoot, flag, Commodore R. Tyrwhitt
HMS Arethusa, Captain TP Hutchinson
HMS Cleopatra, Captain GH West
HMS Conquest, Captain EE Withers
HMS Penelope, Captain T Amos
HMS Canterbury, Captain P.M.R. Royds

9th DF
1 destroyer leader (Marksman class)
HMS Lightfoot, Captain T. Leverson-Gower

17 L Class destroyers:
HMS Lark, HMS Laverock, HMS Linnet, HMS Laertes, HMS Laforey, HMS Lance, HMS Lawford, HMS Legion, HMS Lennox, HMS Leonidas, HMS Llewellyn, HMS Lookout, HMS Loyal, HMS Lucifer, HMS Lysander, HMS Lassoo, HMS Lochinar

1 destroyer leader
HMS Nimrod, Captain HW Gardam

10 Admiralty M class destroyers
HMS Manly, HMS Mansfield, HMS Matchless, HMS Mentor, HMS Meteor, HMS Milne, HMS Minos, HMS Miranda, HMS Murray, HMS Myngs

Finally, based at Sheerness was the Nore Force, consisting of 1 dreadnought, 7 pre dreadnoughts, 3 armoured cruiser and 11 destroyers consisting of:

Nore Command. Based at Sheerness, but actually lying in the Swin, the Northern passage of the Thames estuary:

3BS
HMS Dreadnought, flag, Admiral Sir George Callaghan
HMS Hibernia
HMS Zealandia
HMS Africa
HMS Britannia
HMS Commonwealth
HMS Dominion
HMS Hindustan

3CS
HMS Antrim
HMS Devonshire
HMS Roxburgh

6DF
Leader HMS Swift
10 Tribal Class destroyers
HMS Afridi, HMS Cossack, HMS Gurkha, HMS Mohawk, HMS Tartar, HMS Crusader, HMS Saracen, HMS Nubian, HMS Viking, HMS Zulu

 

[I want to learn]

I feel like the 3BCS and HMAS Australia are more useful for Beatty to have given the communication issues with the 5th Battle Squadren IOTL...but then again, coordination was suboptimal pretty much the entire Battle of Jutland.

 

[zert]

This is looking like a possible bloodbath of epic proportions. Looking forward to how this may play out. As a past fan of your previous naval stories, I await your next update.

 

[Scientist Shan]

What was the weather situation on 22 June?

IIRC there was poor visibility on 31 May.

 

[Battleshiplover]

O' dear no 5 BS to pull Beatty out of the frying pan.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

O' dear no 5 BS to pull Beatty out of the frying pan.

To be fair how high is the likely hood of Hipper initially getting the perfect firing position relative to Beatty and similar weather conditions that nullified the British Battle Cruisers gun and range advantage that he managed to gain OTL

Basically the British ships were backlit by the sun against a low cloud making them and the fall of shot very easy to identify while the German ships had a dark storm cloud on the horizon behind them making them and the British fall of shot very difficult to see.

And this time while Beatty is missing the 5th BS Squadron - he has got Hoods ships back (who were arguably the best shots during the OTL battle) and HMS Australia back from being repaired - and the 3 Squadrons had worked together before while the Queen Elizabeth's had only been with Beatty for just over a week before the OTL battle and had not had an opportunity to work together or conduct any maneuvers with the 1st and 2nd BCS

Beatty had not even met with Rear Admiral Hugh Evans-Thomas during the previous week or so that the Battleships were attached and those 'Fast' battleships were several knots slower than the slowest Battle Cruiser (Warspite - the slowest of the QEs was good for 23.5 knots) - and co-ordination suffered as a result!

So in this scenario Beatty has 10 ships that will be operating together rather than 6 working together and 4 trailing along 10 miles behind wondering what the hell is going on (Which is what happened OTL).

So initially he will have a 2 : 1 advantage in capital ships over Hipper and a significant range advantage

 

[Not Henry G.]

I'm really bad at naval stuff, so who's got the advantage here and on whose side is the bloodbath?

 

[Battleshiplover]

True all good points Cryhavoc101. I had forgotten Hoods 3BCs. Most likely all their correct ammo procedures are still in place and have filtered back to the other BC's. Also from what I recall reading about Hood ,he had a good tactical brain.
Enjoying another one of your nautical tails Johnboy

 

[mudhead]

Looking forward to how this develops

1CS, Cromarty
HMS Defence, flag Rear Admiral Sir Robert Arbuthnot, Bt., RA1CS

A certifiable lunatic.

4LCS, Scapa Flow
HMS Calliope, flag, Commodore C.E. le Mesurier, Cmdre, 4LCS

Think this is the grandfather of an old boss of mine, Charles le Mesurier (cousin of actor John).

 

[Cryhavoc101]

A certifiable lunatic.

Agreed - I pity the crew of any ship unlucky enough to be under his command - in peace and war!

 

[Cryhavoc101]

True all good points Cryhavoc101. I had forgotten Hoods 3BCs. Most likely all their correct ammo procedures are still in place and have filtered back to the other BC's. Also from what I recall reading about Hood ,he had a good tactical brain.
Enjoying another one of your nautical tails Johnboy

I'm not sure about the ammo procedures - as far as I can tell they were the result of the 'wrong lessons' learned during the earlier clashes where it was thought that a slower ROF of the British ships resulted in the Germans ships escaping (where in fact it was faulty/ambiguous signalling) - so sadly I doubt it - not sure if the BC Squadrons being withdrawn 1 by 1 for gunnery training would 'fix' this

I too enjoy Johnboys work

 

[johnboy]

Looking forward to how this develops

A certifiable lunatic.

Think this is the grandfather of an old boss of mine, Charles le Mesurier (cousin of actor John).

Yes, a first class nutter, the direct result of the patronage system still being in place for some officers.

 

[johnboy]

I'm not sure about the ammo procedures - as far as I can tell they were the result of the 'wrong lessons' learned during the earlier clashes where it was thought that a slower ROF of the British ships resulted in the Germans ships escaping (where in fact it was faulty/ambiguous signalling) - so sadly I doubt it - not sure if the BC Squadrons being withdrawn 1 by 1 for gunnery training would 'fix' this

I too enjoy Johnboys work

Faulty lessons learned from the Battle of Heligoland. It was thought that slower ROF was a problem, but in fact poor signalling and inadequate gunnery, as well as faulty spotting of fall of shot was also an issue-as well as the German ship's unexpected toughness. This, in addition to poor quality shells was the decisive factor. Here Beatty will have no support from the 5th BS but four extra ships right from the start. Probably more fragile platforms, true, but also the ships with probably the best gunnery.

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

Faulty lessons learned from the Battle of Heligoland. It was thought that slower ROF was a problem, but in fact poor signalling and inadequate gunnery, as well as faulty spotting of fall of shot was also an issue-as well as the German ship's unexpected toughness. This, in addition to poor quality shells was the decisive factor. Here Beatty will have no support from the 5th BS but four extra ships right from the start. Probably more fragile platforms, true, but also the ships with probably the best gunnery.

Hmm. Yes. But still. Let's assume they hit a few times often. With the German toughness that doesn't mean much. And indeed Beatty won't retreat after his second BC blowing up. Like Farragut he will attack. That means he will likely loose more ships.

 

[Cymraeg]

I just googled Rear Admiral Sir Robert Arbuthnot. My reaction?

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Hmm. Yes. But still. Let's assume they hit a few times often. With the German toughness that doesn't mean much. And indeed Beatty won't retreat after his second BC blowing up. Like Farragut he will attack. That means he will likely loose more ships.

Beatty retreated when he saw the HSF and the ‘tough’ German BCs were badly knocked about during the Run to the South and Run to the North despite their tougher ships.

The heavier armour of the German BCs did not stop turrets being knocked out and secondary’s being wrecked etc

IIRC Von Der Tan had all of her main guns disabled during the earlier part of the battle but due to the ships design was in no immediate danger of sinking – and her Captain courageously decided to keep her in line in order to give the British "1 more ship to shoot at".

Also if the one or both of the other Squadrons and the flagship Lion (whose captain had already been censured on her poor gunnery) have – like Hoods 3rd BCS - rotated through the Grand Fleets gunnery school* as was planned then the entire Battle Cruiser fleets gunnery is going to be nearly as good as Hoods 3rd BCS who focused on Accuracy rather than ROF

However – the POD is 22nd June – that’s only 3 weeks since OTL Jutland not sure all 7 Ships would have rotated through at that point


As an aside has anyone else read Nick Jellicoe’s “Jutland – the Unfinished Battle” – if not then if you have even the most passing of interests in the battle then it’s worth a read.

Nick Jellicoe (Grandson of the Admiral) is a fluent German speaker and lives in Switzerland so has been able to source a great deal of German Information and speak with German experts (and those from other nations) on the battle and is able to provide a very interesting and detailed account of the battle with the point of view changing from both sides – and the book is backed up with on line content as well as being linked with the centenary display at Portsmouth Historic Dockyard Museum.


*The Battle Cruisers were always on alert to sortie and had no facilities for gunnery practice where they were based unlike the Grand Fleet which was not on alert to sortie and did have the facilities for regular gunnery practice.

 

[NHBL]

HMS Royal Sovereign might have been present for a delayed battle. At OTL's Jutland, she'd been in commission for three weeks, so was left behind due to an inexperienced crew. Three weeks later, she might have sortied with the rest of the fleet, and 8 15" guns is significant...