Italians stop at Halfaya Pass in 1940?

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You seem to have forgotten something, the Italians didn't have anything that could crack Matilda armour, so holding there wouldn't have stopped the British long.

They had the AA 75/46 gun, that was the basis of the dedicated tankiller Semovente da 75/46 in 1942. They had the divisional 100/27 field guns, that might not pierce the Natilda mantlet and hull armour without a dedicated AT shell, but would probably disable a Matilda if it on the side.
The more modern 75/32 field gun was later adopted as a tank gun (in the P26) and was a very good AT wreapon, but I'm not sure they had them in Africa at the time.
 
Italy's entry into the war was based in the delusion that Germany would win the war quickly (http://www.comandosupremo.com/german-military-incompetence-through-italian-eyes.html). Like the token attack against France, that had political rather than military goals, an invasion of Egipt was essencilly a political option to lay the basis for a possible post war expansion.
As such, and since anything short of reaching the Suez would be of dubious military value (just ask Rommel), the Italians would be sensible to make a military gesture (deploying forward to a good defensive line) and then sending only in depth recce forces forward. They didn't have the logistics for more.
The greatest advantage, and Wiking will be sure to exploit it, is that such an option prevents the need for a German intervention in NA, leaving a few forces (and aircraft) free for other stuff...
 
Well then hey are in a catch 22 and are better off for staying on the defensive and letting the British attack them first. Overall they would come out ahead by tying British forces down in Africa, while not losing all those men and that equipment in 1940-41. By mid/late 1941 when the British do go on the offensive the logistics upgrade enable the Italians to fight far more effectively and prevent the British from just running away with the campaign. It keeps the Germans out of the area too until and unless the Italians fall apart later. Even then the logistics upgrades help whomever the Germans send to stabilize the situation.

It sounds like a good way of avoiding having to send all those German trucks to the desert.

Italy halts at Halfaya, Compass never happens, Rommel ends up in Russia. The UK sends reinforcements to Greece with predictable results, but the lesser commitment in the desert *might* make Crete go differently. After that, there's probably some attack on Halfaya after East Africa has been cleared.

Or - the Italians drive forward in an attempt to relieve pressure on Keren, and probably cut their head cut off in the open desert?
 

hipper

Banned
Direct fire artillery would have worked.


Perhaps after advancing and bogging down Graziani could act on his own initiative to withdraw to the Pass and hold there to make a point to Mussolini about the logistics situation?


The Italian Artillery arm was noted to be the most efficient arm of the Italian ground forces during operation Compass - the attack by O'Conor that drove the Italian Army from Western Libya. Italian guns frequently fought until the advancing troops were at the gun muzzle.

the guns themselves were capable of damaging the exterior of a Matilda enough to make it a casualty. and caused many casualties during the attack on the Italian "forts" in Egypt.

they Lost because

they were facing attack by well trained Regular troops in night assaults.
The italians never concentrated their mobile forces in a counter attack against the Imperial forces.

thus they left immobile infantry in the Desert and at fortified forts to be picked of at Leisure.

their mobile forces spent their efforts in getting away something they were unsuccsessful in doing.

Cheers Hipper
 
1,600 artillery pieces concentrated at Halfaya against 120 British guns is going to give them a lot of flexibility to use guns forward...
How many of those could actually do anything to a Matilda? How many of those that could could be aimed to hit them?

while having 1,249 aircraft for use against the British; even if the artillery is totally ineffective bomb dropping aircraft, including dive capable biplanes, are going to be able to stop the British tanks if need be.
I'd have to check the aircraft of the various contingents, but I don't think the result would be good for the Italians, the RAF can operation from rail-supplied bases at Mersa Matruh, while the Regia Aeronautica is operating from truck-supplied ones which means that the British have the logistical advantage here.

That's just fine then. The British sit back and wait for resources. When do they turn up, mid-1941? Battleaxe had less troops used than Compass. Really until Italian East Africa is dealt with the British don't have the strength to push the Italians out of the Pass and even then it may well take until late 1941 to amass enough resources like they did for Operation Crusader.
You realise that if the Italians don't attack then the British likely won't either right? Remember, with no African front sucking up supplies the British can send troops and equipment to Malaya, possibly preventing the Japanese capture there and considerably shortening the war.

Fair enough; the Italians would eventually attack when they could build up enough supply and rail support to successfully invade Egypt, especially when Greece is over and all supplies could come to them.
Hm, maybe you've been missing the fact that the Italians have little or no rail capacity, and limited port capacity. Maybe with a lot of work they might be ready by '45, but the situation will have been decided long before that.

or 6. Balbo lives and resists pressure to invade once the Italians cannot supply an advance that keeps them in contact with the British, instead building up his supply lines first.
That's a wonderful idea, but one that doesn't really fit with the observed actions, because the totally inadequate ports and rail network ought to have been replaced a long time before.

Building up the Benghazi rail line was in progress pre-war, just wait for it to be finished; the British were able to lay much more rail in several months during their offensives, so its not hard for the Italians to just continue their work to like Tripoli to Benghazi by rail and make an offensive possible by mid-1941.
Before or after the Italians get caught up in Barbarossa?

Well then hey are in a catch 22 and are better off for staying on the defensive and letting the British attack them first. Overall they would come out ahead by tying British forces down in Africa, while not losing all those men and that equipment in 1940-41. By mid/late 1941 when the British do go on the offensive the logistics upgrade enable the Italians to fight far more effectively and prevent the British from just running away with the campaign.
Except that the Italians would need a comprehensive industrial upgrade at home before they had a hope of matching the British, and even then, a rail line is only one link in the chain, port capacity is another limitation, and naval power is another, all of which is on the British side ATM.

So Africa bogs down until one side or the other decides to attack; by 1943 the British will have the ability to dominate, but until then it can be held with existing resources and perhaps even allow for the attack on Malta in 1941 or 1942.
Uh, nope, that ship's sailed.

Germany commits nothing until 1943 or never, effectively waiting until Sicily is threatened to intervene. The British in the meantime don't gain the necessary combat experience fighting Rommel, so when they overrun the Italians and finally start fighting the Germans again in Sicily they may have some trouble, same with the US if they don't fight the Germans in Tunisia.
In the meantime, Malaya holds out against the Japanese, which sees them paying a much higher toll, and falling out a lot sooner. Actually, come to think of it, they might just bow out early if it becomes obvious in 1942 that the British are putting up a fight.
 
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Some thoughts:

1) Could the Italians just ask the Germans in July 40 for two batteries and crews of 88 mm guns (8 total). It wouldn't be much to ask for, it could still be a 99% Italian operation and much less than the entire OTL DAK force later. With 2 batteries of 88s it seems the Halfays blocking concept becomes doable.

2) Instead of sending all the Italian Infantry divisions across into Egypt September 40, why not just send a small mobile force, a motorized infantry regiment, reinforced with what ever armor (tankettes) and push as far as you can get away with in August 40. It would be much easier to supply and when it gets cut up by the British you can tell Mussolini, see what happened, we tried and failed, better go on the defence?
 
Some thoughts:

1) Could the Italians just ask the Germans in July 40 for two batteries and crews of 88 mm guns (8 total). It wouldn't be much to ask for, it could still be a 99% Italian operation and much less than the entire OTL DAK force later. With 2 batteries of 88s it seems the Halfays blocking concept becomes doable.

2) Instead of sending all the Italian Infantry divisions across into Egypt September 40, why not just send a small mobile force, a motorized infantry regiment, reinforced with what ever armor (tankettes) and push as far as you can get away with in August 40. It would be much easier to supply and when it gets cut up by the British you can tell Mussolini, see what happened, we tried and failed, better go on the defence?

Why would they have to do that? They could just use the 75/46 they had in quantity or the 90/53 being introduced.

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Some thoughts:

1) Could the Italians just ask the Germans in July 40 for two batteries and crews of 88 mm guns (8 total). It wouldn't be much to ask for, it could still be a 99% Italian operation and much less than the entire OTL DAK force later. With 2 batteries of 88s it seems the Halfays blocking concept becomes doable.

2) Instead of sending all the Italian Infantry divisions across into Egypt September 40, why not just send a small mobile force, a motorized infantry regiment, reinforced with what ever armor (tankettes) and push as far as you can get away with in August 40. It would be much easier to supply and when it gets cut up by the British you can tell Mussolini, see what happened, we tried and failed, better go on the defence?

1) Why? Don't they have AAA of their own?

8 Flak guns are not going to help (BTW it was lighter 50mm AT guns that did most of the work)

2) But the British are weak, their Empire is ripe for the picking its Italy's turn in the sun - look at our successes in East Africa!!!! Onwards to Cairo....and....beyonddddddd.......(or so went the thinking at the time)



This whole situation - would very likely only happen if France or at least French North Africa stayed in the fight as part of the Allies.

Then I can see the Italians looking to find somewhere defensible if they are seeking not to take the canal but instead to defend Libya From Possible Frnch Attack from Tunisia and British attacks from Egypt.

Now where would they hold on the other side?

Advance and dig in south East of the Mareth Line - Guarding both the Strip of land between the mountains and the Sea as well as the pass to the south?

Then stopping 10 kms inside Egypt kinda makes sense
 
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