Is a British "Imperial Federation" tenable in the long term?

(For this question we'll define "imperial federation" as a federation of Britain and its settler colonies, give or take some islands and other small outlying territories)

The concept of an imperial federation is an idea that I often see tossed around on this forum, seen by many as a viable path for the British to maintain their influence and power around the globe. A cool idea, sure, but what incentives does it have to stay together in the long run as a federated entity united to any meaningful degree? The challenges I see are as follows:
  • Economic. The constituent states (UK, CAN, SA, AUS/NZ) all have significantly different economic interests. Canada with the US, the UK with continental Europe, AUS/NZ with Asia, etc. For example, why should Canada allow trade with the US to be influenced by people thousands of miles away? No amount of integration is going to change the fact that each constituent state's largest trading interests lay outside of this hypothetical union.
  • Cultural. I don't see how you can prevent the dominions from developing distinct, separate cultures and identities from the British -- not when there are thousands of miles of ocean between them. And when that happens, it's only a matter of time before voters begin to ask why those people get to have a say in their affairs and why those people get to have a share of their paid taxes.
  • Military. The defense concerns of each state are wildly different. The threats that the British Isles face are not the same as the ones faced by say, Australia. They could probably afford a strong fleet, sure, but who's going to pay for it? Where does it focus its attention to? For example, if the US Navy was willing to keep shipping routes open and keep the waters safe, then what reason does Canada have to pay taxes towards the defense of Australia and New Zealand?
I want to believe that an imperial federation could survive well into the 21st century as a world power, as I do think it's a pretty cool concept. But the more I think about it the more impractical it seems. I'd love to be proven wrong though.
 
An Imperial Federation is probably gone as soon as India and Malaya is gone. India and Malaya won't get to join but they are the exploitable bit of the empire.

If the Empire is the premier power it can hold together but if USA emerges as an industrial powerhouse it will take over as the Premier power and break the federation.

The only Imperial Federation I've seen that I believed in was a stargate timeline/fanfic where the Empire gets a free money pit in the mid 1800s.
 
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(For this question we'll define "imperial federation" as a federation of Britain and its settler colonies, give or take some islands and other small outlying territories)

The concept of an imperial federation is an idea that I often see tossed around on this forum, seen by many as a viable path for the British to maintain their influence and power around the globe. A cool idea, sure, but what incentives does it have to stay together in the long run as a federated entity united to any meaningful degree? The challenges I see are as follows:
  • Economic. The constituent states (UK, CAN, SA, AUS/NZ) all have significantly different economic interests. Canada with the US, the UK with continental Europe, AUS/NZ with Asia, etc. For example, why should Canada allow trade with the US to be influenced by people thousands of miles away? No amount of integration is going to change the fact that each constituent state's largest trading interests lay outside of this hypothetical union.
  • Cultural. I don't see how you can prevent the dominions from developing distinct, separate cultures and identities from the British -- not when there are thousands of miles of ocean between them. And when that happens, it's only a matter of time before voters begin to ask why those people get to have a say in their affairs and why those people get to have a share of their paid taxes.
  • Military. The defense concerns of each state are wildly different. The threats that the British Isles face are not the same as the ones faced by say, Australia. They could probably afford a strong fleet, sure, but who's going to pay for it? Where does it focus its attention to? For example, if the US Navy was willing to keep shipping routes open and keep the waters safe, then what reason does Canada have to pay taxes towards the defense of Australia and New Zealand?
I want to believe that an imperial federation could survive well into the 21st century as a world power, as I do think it's a pretty cool concept. But the more I think about it the more impractical it seems. I'd love to be proven wrong though.
Good analysis and I agree with your points.

I think it possible that the Commonwealth could survive as a Trade Bloc and defence alliance without WW2. Maybe even a loose quasi-Confederation like the EC pre Maastricht.

But a Federal State, no.

Probably need a POD in the early 18th century to get the idea of separate Imperial and local Parliaments that would make it workable. And keep the 13 Colonies as equal partners (legally if not in size, ETA or voting power)

Perhaps a POD where the Acts of Union establish a separate Imperial Parliament while retaining Home Rule ones for England and Scotland. Ireland and the various Settler Colonies could then send representatives to this later.

Can't think how to get this POD though.

😀

Edited for typos and clarity
 
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  • Economic. The constituent states (UK, CAN, SA, AUS/NZ) all have significantly different economic interests. Canada with the US, the UK with continental Europe, AUS/NZ with Asia, etc. For example, why should Canada allow trade with the US to be influenced by people thousands of miles away? No amount of integration is going to change the fact that each constituent state's largest trading interests lay outside of this hypothetical union.

They have significantly different economic interests now. That is not the same thing as saying that they are preordained to drift apart as far as they have done.

Before the UK entered the EEC, very nearly half of all Australian exports went to the UK. This is despite two decades of an extremely disappointing British economic performance which saw over-nationalisation, overprotection, and legislated uncompetitiveness. Perhaps more importantly, this is also despite several "false starts" which had given Australia and the rest of the Commonwealth advanced notice of Britain's willingness to sell them down the river.

One interesting anecdote I've always recalled from one of my sessions squirreling away in the intricacies of Commonwealth trade was the observation (by whom I can't recall) that between the 1961 Macmillan application, the 1969 Wilson application, and the 1972 Heath entry, the Australian Department for Trade had gone from calling the UK (in order) Pommies, Pommie bastards, to "the British" (you'd likely have to be British, Australian, or New Zealander to understand why the last one is the most insulting).

Back to the more general implication that the countries you've listed were simply destined to break economic ties, I would submit to you that, today, in our timeline, the largest trading relationship in the world is between the United States and China. Shanghai is 6,479 miles from Los Angeles. Perth is 8,991 miles from London.

To put it very crudely, there is no cardinal rule of economics which says that you must trade more with those who happen to be in walking distance. It wasn't always this way. It didn't have to be this way.

  • Cultural. I don't see how you can prevent the dominions from developing distinct, separate cultures and identities from the British -- not when there are thousands of miles of ocean between them. And when that happens, it's only a matter of time before voters begin to ask why those people get to have a say in their affairs and why those people get to have a share of their paid taxes.

There are people in North Carolina who speak with a 17th century West Country dialect.

Anyway, as soon as we get to the age of mass media and mass transportation, these concerns diminish considerably.

  • Military. The defense concerns of each state are wildly different. The threats that the British Isles face are not the same as the ones faced by say, Australia. They could probably afford a strong fleet, sure, but who's going to pay for it? Where does it focus its attention to? For example, if the US Navy was willing to keep shipping routes open and keep the waters safe, then what reason does Canada have to pay taxes towards the defense of Australia and New Zealand?

The threats that Australia face are not the same ones that the United States face. I don't think we need to question whether the United States would be prepared to defend Australia from invasion. Same goes for the UK toward Australia. Additionally, these three countries would likely be working in tandem with the United States, not in opposition to it.
 
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With all that being said, I don't believe a formal Imperial Federation would ever have truly been on the cards. That's just, put crudely, not very British.

What I absolutely do think could have happened is for the Commonwealth to have evolved into something entirely different. Canada's trading relationships both intra-Commonwealth, and extra-Commonwealth would be negotiated differently to Australia's, for example. It would be a hodgepodge of muddled up arrangements with copious exceptions and other fruits of Sir Humphrey Appleby's interdepartmental committees, which collectively secure a much tighter knit Commonwealth.
 
To put it very crudely, there is no cardinal rule of economics which says that you must trade more with those who happen to be in walking distance. It wasn't always this way. It didn't have to be this.
And yet the U.K. still trades more with Ireland than it does with nations with over a billion people, and even back in the days of the commonwealth Ireland was still in the top 10 when all Ireland had was agri goods effectively at that point. Proximity does matter in Trade.
 
And yet the U.K. still trades more with Ireland than it does with nations with over a billion people, and even back in the days of the commonwealth Ireland was still in the top 10 when all Ireland had was agri goods effectively at that point. Proximity does matter in Trade.

The fact that the UK trades more with Ireland than with France buttresses my underlying point, in my view.
 

Riain

Banned
I can imagine the Commonwealth being a trade and alliance bloc, which would compensate for the lack of proximity by a close and trusted set of relationships. However a Federation isn't going to survive once non British immigrants start coming into these countries in large numbers.
 
I can imagine the Commonwealth being a trade and alliance bloc, which would compensate for the lack of proximity by a close and trusted set of relationships. However a Federation isn't going to survive once non British immigrants start coming into these countries in large numbers.
Or I would have thought significant movement from Africa and India might spark issues?
 
(For this question we'll define "imperial federation" as a federation of Britain and its settler colonies, give or take some islands and other small outlying territories)

The concept of an imperial federation is an idea that I often see tossed around on this forum, seen by many as a viable path for the British to maintain their influence and power around the globe. A cool idea, sure, but what incentives does it have to stay together in the long run as a federated entity united to any meaningful degree? The challenges I see are as follows:
  • Economic. The constituent states (UK, CAN, SA, AUS/NZ) all have significantly different economic interests. Canada with the US, the UK with continental Europe, AUS/NZ with Asia, etc. For example, why should Canada allow trade with the US to be influenced by people thousands of miles away? No amount of integration is going to change the fact that each constituent state's largest trading interests lay outside of this hypothetical union.
  • Cultural. I don't see how you can prevent the dominions from developing distinct, separate cultures and identities from the British -- not when there are thousands of miles of ocean between them. And when that happens, it's only a matter of time before voters begin to ask why those people get to have a say in their affairs and why those people get to have a share of their paid taxes.
  • Military. The defense concerns of each state are wildly different. The threats that the British Isles face are not the same as the ones faced by say, Australia. They could probably afford a strong fleet, sure, but who's going to pay for it? Where does it focus its attention to? For example, if the US Navy was willing to keep shipping routes open and keep the waters safe, then what reason does Canada have to pay taxes towards the defense of Australia and New Zealand?
I want to believe that an imperial federation could survive well into the 21st century as a world power, as I do think it's a pretty cool concept. But the more I think about it the more impractical it seems. I'd love to be proven wrong though.
You have laid out the challenges to such a state pretty well. These would all be issues that would have to be dealt with if the IF actually existed. But I don't think they are insurmountable. Lets look at them separately:

Economics
These states would indeed have different economic priorities. But it could also be said that the East Coast of the US often has wildly different economic priorities from the West Coast, and that both can have wildly different Economic priorities than the Mid-West. Having different, or even incompatible economic priorities does not necessarily preclude being part of the same nation-state.

In the case of Canada, it is worth noting that the Canadian economy was massively influenced by the American one since before Confederation, yet American trade with Canada only surpassed British trade in the 1920's in the wake of WW1. This was pretty quickly reversed again when the US increased tariffs, and was further reinforced by Imperial Preference on the Commonwealth side and even higher tariffs on the American side. If the economic situation in the Post-WW2 world is better managed or if the IF as a whole is doing well enough to take up the slack it is entirely possible for Intra-IF trade to be more important to Canada than trade with the US for much longer. US trade is still going to be a huge part of the economy and I would expect Canadian voices to be the strongest ones in advocating more open borders with the US, but it does not necessarily mean they will reject the IF for the sake of US trade. Indeed, the IF as a whole will likely have a strong resource export sector and even if the Dominions are more industrialized than OTL and Britain's industrial sector is more robust the IF as a whole would likely benefit from closer trade ties to the US. So the two are not mutually exclusive.

In the case of Australia and New Zealand, much the same export materials that now fuel their economy through trade with China used to fuel their economy through trade with Britain. An IF that has a collective industrial capacity greater than OTL and open borders between its members would likely still be an important part of their trade. And, like with the US, a properly managed relationship with South East Asia could be a benefit to all members and may not be mutually exclusive with an IF. There may also be an opportunity depending on the IF's relationship with India. If a greater integration between Britain and the Dominions is possible it might also be possible to have a better managed relationship with India. Depending on the path TTL's India takes it could end up filling the OTL role of China, taking in large amounts of raw materials and making use of its cheap labour to produce finished goods. If both these things are true then Australian and New Zealand exports will benefit from the closer relationship.

I am not well versed in South Africa's economy but they also have a large resource export sector, so much of what is said about the others applies to them as well.

Culture
A few years ago I moved from the part of Canada that I grew up in to another part far from it. I have spent much of the time since then trying to adjust to the culture shock. Though we were part of the same country the culture, expressions, attitudes and outlook on life were very different. Our political views are on many things almost polar opposite as well. Yet there was still a sense of connectedness and belonging since we were all Canadians.

For an Imperial Federation to work, you would have to have something similar. An overarching cultural identity that says "Even though you are a South African, and you are an Australian and I am a Canadian and he is from London, we are all (British/Imperial/whatever name for the larger culture you come up with)". That is part of why I believe that the time for the establishment of the Imperial Federation would have had to have been pre-WW1. WW1 gave a lot of life to the nationalist sentiments in the Dominions and somewhat damaged the interconnectedness of the Empire as a whole. To make the IF work in the long term I think you would have to have it existing (even if somewhat nebulous) prior to the war. Preferably you would also manage to turn the war into an exercise in nation building the entire Federation as well. Where people come out of it feeling as or more proud to be part of this larger entity than they went in.

Its probably the most difficult challenge to creating a lasting IF, but I don't think it is impossible.

Military
AIUI a big factor in Australia and New Zealand turning from Britain to the US militarily was the simple fact that Britain could not safeguard their integrity and this had basically been demonstrated by WW2. If the IF as a whole is in a strong position coming out of WW2 then it should be pretty possible to maintain a military that is capable of both preparing for WW3 (the main concern of Britain and Canada) and fighting the little conflicts throughout the globe (the main concern of Australia and New Zealand). This is basically what the UK was trying to do IOTL, but did not have the resources or political will to maintain.

So, to sum up, there were very good reasons why the Imperial Federation did not happen IOTL. But being impossible to maintain is not, IMHO, one of them.
 
For an Imperial Federation to work, you would have to have something similar. An overarching cultural identity that says "Even though you are a South African, and you are an Australian and I am a Canadian and he is from London, we are all (British/Imperial/whatever name for the larger culture you come up with)". That is part of why I believe that the time for the establishment of the Imperial Federation would have had to have been pre-WW1. WW1 gave a lot of life to the nationalist sentiments in the Dominions and somewhat damaged the interconnectedness of the Empire as a whole. To make the IF work in the long term I think you would have to have it existing (even if somewhat nebulous) prior to the war. Preferably you would also manage to turn the war into an exercise in nation building the entire Federation as well. Where people come out of it feeling as or more proud to be part of this larger entity than they went in.
The discussion here might be useful in thinking about an overarching identity for an Imperial Federation:

 
The threats that Australia face are not the same ones that the United States face. I don't think we need to question whether the United States would be prepared to defend Australia from invasion. Same goes for the UK toward Australia. Additionally, these three countries would likely be working in tandem with the United States, not in opposition to it.
Uh, yeah, we absolutely do. American commitment to Australia has always been lukewarm, and never successfully tested. They'll only defend us if it's in their interests.

In terms of simply defence, the idea is a non-starter. As noted, neither Canada nor Britain, by far the 2nd largest and largest economies in this hypothetical union, have no real interest in subsidising the vastly more uncertain security interests of Australia and New Zealand. They are probably too weak to really do so into the 21st century anyhow, and obviously Britain was totally unable to resist the Japanese during WW2. Some sort of stronger Commonwealth was certainly plausible pre-WW2, and in particular pre-WW1, but if the US is excluded the white Anglophone world has never had the resources to compete on a global scale in the context of the mid 20th century onwards. The economic relationship between Britain and the other members is also pretty flimsy in the long run, Britain simply isn't going to consume all that many Canadian or Antipodean commodities while Asia certainly will. A stronger relationship is plausible, but as the primary trading partner? Not unless a lot of people are going to forgo a lot of extremely easy money.
 
Of course, one of the main problems I see with the IF is that it was a minority opinion in Britain itself; support for the Empire and such was always lukewarm. Therefore, to me, the problem with long-term viability of the IF project is Britain itself. If the IF doesn't prove more beneficial to the UK than what already existed peripherally with the Empire, and if public attitudes don't shift, then it's already doomed to failure before it's even started. There's a reason why the IF's proponents tried to tie it together with Home Rule (All Round), and hence as a possible solution to the Irish Question.
 

Riain

Banned
In terms of simply defence, the idea is a non-starter. As noted, neither Canada nor Britain, by far the 2nd largest and largest economies in this hypothetical union, have no real interest in subsidising the vastly more uncertain security interests of Australia and New Zealand. They are probably too weak to really do so into the 21st century anyhow, and obviously Britain was totally unable to resist the Japanese during WW2. Some sort of stronger Commonwealth was certainly plausible pre-WW2, and in particular pre-WW1, but if the US is excluded the white Anglophone world has never had the resources to compete on a global scale in the context of the mid 20th century onwards. The economic relationship between Britain and the other members is also pretty flimsy in the long run, Britain simply isn't going to consume all that many Canadian or Antipodean commodities while Asia certainly will. A stronger relationship is plausible, but as the primary trading partner? Not unless a lot of people are going to forgo a lot of extremely easy money.

The defence aspects aren't chiseled in stone, the events of early WW2 were well below 'average' and while they could have been worse its extremely easy to see how they could have been a hell of a lot better. A better performance in North Africa and the Balkans during 1941 put Britain in a better material position to withstand the Japanese, but easier still is putting the right person (or two) in position in the Far East would have resulted in much better performance against the Japanese. Such minor changes can transform the viability of the defence aspects of a much tighter Commonwealth, making it much more attractive to Australia and New Zealand, and India and Malaysia for that matter after WW2.
 
Uh, yeah, we absolutely do. American commitment to Australia has always been lukewarm, and never successfully tested. They'll only defend us if it's in their interests.

In terms of simply defence, the idea is a non-starter. As noted, neither Canada nor Britain, by far the 2nd largest and largest economies in this hypothetical union, have no real interest in subsidising the vastly more uncertain security interests of Australia and New Zealand. They are probably too weak to really do so into the 21st century anyhow, and obviously Britain was totally unable to resist the Japanese during WW2. Some sort of stronger Commonwealth was certainly plausible pre-WW2, and in particular pre-WW1, but if the US is excluded the white Anglophone world has never had the resources to compete on a global scale in the context of the mid 20th century onwards. The economic relationship between Britain and the other members is also pretty flimsy in the long run, Britain simply isn't going to consume all that many Canadian or Antipodean commodities while Asia certainly will. A stronger relationship is plausible, but as the primary trading partner? Not unless a lot of people are going to forgo a lot of extremely easy money.
The combined military expenditure of Canada, UK, Australia and NZ right now would place CANZUK with the 3rd highest military expenditures.
The defence aspects aren't chiseled in stone, the events of early WW2 were well below 'average' and while they could have been worse its extremely easy to see how they could have been a hell of a lot better. A better performance in North Africa and the Balkans during 1941 put Britain in a better material position to withstand the Japanese, but easier still is putting the right person (or two) in position in the Far East would have resulted in much better performance against the Japanese. Such minor changes can transform the viability of the defence aspects of a much tighter Commonwealth, making it much more attractive to Australia and New Zealand, and India and Malaysia for that matter after WW2.
Anyone other than Mack King in charge of Canada during WW2 could have changed things drastically as well. He was generally opposed to any involvement and allowed only volunteer forces
 
I guess I'm kind of inclined to think that a lot of the reasons why IF wouldn't work are also among the reasons why it was never formed in our history, so there seems to be at least some chance that an alternate history in which IF is formed might have other differences that could make long term survival possible.
 
The discussion here might be useful in thinking about an overarching identity for an Imperial Federation:

In this thread we do discuss alot of the differing ideas around IF.

It was mentioned upthread, but IMHO British resistance to the idea is the reason it didnt happen OTL. Canada was actually probably the largest proponent of it: if Britain had agreed to Imperial Preference earlier, if Borden beat Laurier in 1908 and agreed to subsidize the Royal Navy...., earlier Irish Home Rule, longer PMship of Bonar Law...if the USA doesnt get involved in one of the wars....there are plenty of things that could have changed that would lead to a much closer relationship. Probably not an outright Federation, but you could see the Commonwealth as something like the European Union.

EDIT: got the year wrong. Changed to 1908.
 
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(For this question we'll define "imperial federation" as a federation of Britain and its settler colonies, give or take some islands and other small outlying territories)

The concept of an imperial federation is an idea that I often see tossed around on this forum, seen by many as a viable path for the British to maintain their influence and power around the globe. A cool idea, sure, but what incentives does it have to stay together in the long run as a federated entity united to any meaningful degree? The challenges I see are as follows:
  • Economic. The constituent states (UK, CAN, SA, AUS/NZ) all have significantly different economic interests. Canada with the US, the UK with continental Europe, AUS/NZ with Asia, etc. For example, why should Canada allow trade with the US to be influenced by people thousands of miles away? No amount of integration is going to change the fact that each constituent state's largest trading interests lay outside of this hypothetical union.
  • Cultural. I don't see how you can prevent the dominions from developing distinct, separate cultures and identities from the British -- not when there are thousands of miles of ocean between them. And when that happens, it's only a matter of time before voters begin to ask why those people get to have a say in their affairs and why those people get to have a share of their paid taxes.
  • Military. The defense concerns of each state are wildly different. The threats that the British Isles face are not the same as the ones faced by say, Australia. They could probably afford a strong fleet, sure, but who's going to pay for it? Where does it focus its attention to? For example, if the US Navy was willing to keep shipping routes open and keep the waters safe, then what reason does Canada have to pay taxes towards the defense of Australia and New Zealand?
I want to believe that an imperial federation could survive well into the 21st century as a world power, as I do think it's a pretty cool concept. But the more I think about it the more impractical it seems. I'd love to be proven wrong though.
An imperial Federation is something I only see possible between the years of 1920 and 1950's.
You must have South Africa involved. No South Africa, no Imperial federation. South Africa is the link between these far flung regions of the commonwealht.
 
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