Irritating clichés about Pre-1900 AH

Also, the fact that they could occasionally force a surrender of a fortress or fortified city obviously indicates that the thousands of castles in central Europe will be less than speed bumps to their advance. Oh, and they'll never find themselves at such a tactical disadvantage that their horse archers would find themselves in melee against armored knights, so they'll never lose to a European army. Nope, delay their political troubles and they'll be right up against the English Channel before you know it.
Not that I deny that this would cause problems for the Mongols, but weren't their siege tactics quite successful? They were able to keep the (walled) Jin capital of Zhongdu surrounded and under siege for a mere two years before it capitulated. Their armies didn't have to do much if they only had to wait and starve out their conquests. Not only that, but weren't they also known to speed up the process through other means? (the catapulting of plague victims into fortified cities comes to mind) I mention this only to point out that European fortifications aren't completely impervious, and aren't something the Mongols would be completely unfamiliar with...

I would would welcome being corrected on the matter, though!
 
Not that I deny that this would cause problems for the Mongols, but weren't their siege tactics quite successful? They were able to keep the (walled) Jin capital of Zhongdu surrounded and under siege for a mere two years before it capitulated. Their armies didn't have to do much if they only had to wait and starve out their conquests. Not only that, but weren't they also known to speed up the process through other means? (the catapulting of plague victims into fortified cities comes to mind) I mention this only to point out that European fortifications aren't completely impervious, and aren't something the Mongols would be completely unfamiliar with...

I would would welcome being corrected on the matter, though!

Two years is a long time to wait, especially given the shortage of grazing land for horses in much of Europe. I remember someone calculating that even the Hungarian plain would only support 40,000 Mongols' horses (keeping in mind that each soldier would have several horses, as per their usual tactics) for a pretty brief period. Geography also becomes a bitch here; crossing the Danube can only be done at a few places, pretty much all of which are fortified. It's not that European castles are invincible, but the combination of their presence and numbers, the existence of geographic choke points like the Danube and the Carpathians, and the dearth of grazing for Mongol horses severely limits how far the hordes could go before having to fall back to better pastures.

Oh, and encountering more heavily armored enemies in such rugged terrain would mess the Mongols up, as well.
 
Someday I really like to read a good european timeline that recognizes that warfare circa 17th century wasnt mechanized warfare ca 1950. Every time I read the word "Manpower" pre-1800 I know the writer has a very sparse knowledge of history. Moreover 8/10+ soldiers died outside of battles and please look up supply people...its what real generals worry about.

Also when I read something which treats peacedeals like they were total war WW2 style makes me just shake my head. Grabbing land outside what you had claims for and could legalize for was seen as almost unheard off. Thats why you see 10 years of warfare and then go....they fought all that for that tiny strip?

This brings me to the last part....borders....the fact that you had to motivate however thinly at times what you got through treaties/inheritance/legal claims borders tend to look like bizarro land in history. History books usually simplify this somewhat but AH go way further and always (close enough) make the countries look nicely square or round. There is a reason for those borders...look it up. Lastly wiping countries off the map was extremely rare even for gross violations of the behavior code expected of the time.
 

Onyx

Banned
Anything that seems impossible at a small minor scale, is impossible, and if so, is considered ASB

Nothing is impossible, though at a minor scale, but if you have the ability to pull it off, the right info, and a feasible, it can happen
 
The Anglo-Burgundian alliance was forced and therefore doomed

The Burgundians, albeit hesitatingly, entered into an alliance with Henry V. The Burgundians did not have some grand plan to turn on the English. They were reluctant to ally with Charles VII and that was a matter of necessity so it is unrealistic for them to stay with the Plantagebets.
 
Anything that seems impossible at a small minor scale, is impossible, and if so, is considered ASB

Nothing is impossible, though at a minor scale, but if you have the ability to pull it off, the right info, and a feasible, it can happen

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Can you elaborate?
 
Anything that seems impossible at a small minor scale, is impossible, and if so, is considered ASB

Nothing is impossible, though at a minor scale, but if you have the ability to pull it off, the right info, and a feasible, it can happen

To quote from a Sealion thread:

Of course anything is theoretically possible, the Flying Spaghetti Monster could appear over the British Isles in September and kinetically bombard the British into submission with giant meatballs but the burden of proof must lie upon those who make unfalsifiable claims, not on those who reject them[.]
 
Not that I deny that this would cause problems for the Mongols, but weren't their siege tactics quite successful? They were able to keep the (walled) Jin capital of Zhongdu surrounded and under siege for a mere two years before it capitulated. Their armies didn't have to do much if they only had to wait and starve out their conquests. Not only that, but weren't they also known to speed up the process through other means? (the catapulting of plague victims into fortified cities comes to mind) I mention this only to point out that European fortifications aren't completely impervious, and aren't something the Mongols would be completely unfamiliar with...

I would would welcome being corrected on the matter, though!

See that's hardly quite successful, if it took two years for every major citadel to fall then it would take thousands of years for them to get all the way through Europe, I mean even though they are capable of forcing a surrender through siege Europe has so many fortified towns and castles that bringing the campaign to a halt to lay siege would be a massive undue cost. Especially since the troops are paid in plunder and protracted sieges of purely military strongholds tend to result in little of that for the soldiers.
 

Onyx

Banned
I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Can you elaborate?

If you have good and legit historical information then possible events can happen (Say Zoroastrians can make a comeback during Islamic conquering or Christianity reaching Kamakura Japan at 1200's than during Sengoku), though on a minor scale

To quote from a Sealion thread:

I meant historically possible, not "King Richard the Lionheart becomes Muslim because he wants to" possible, just because I said feasible things can be possible doesnt mean Im saying the FSM can be real and take over the world :noexpression:
 
I meant historically possible, not "King Richard the Lionheart becomes Muslim because he wants to" possible, just because I said feasible things can be possible doesnt mean Im saying the FSM can be real and take over the world :noexpression:

I've yet to see someone argue that their idea of the moment is infeasible.

But I have seen plenty of people argue - in defiance of any and all counterarguments - that invading via the Frisian Islands can work, that the Stuarts could favor Scotland after a successful Jacobite movement without getting themselves kicked out yet again, that Roman Germania would have been a good idea and others (I just named three I've been in threads where they come up).

So of course feasible things can happen. Now if only whether or not something was feasible was something that would actually discourage pursuing it.

That's why I posted that quote. It is a revered tradition here that naysayers are some kind of awful hideous thing and that people calling out the implausibility of something are tantamount to trolls.

And it's very annoying, and very bad for serious discussion of alternate history as opposed to fantasy fiction.
 

Onyx

Banned
I've yet to see someone argue that their idea of the moment is infeasible.

But I have seen plenty of people argue - in defiance of any and all counterarguments - that invading via the Frisian Islands can work, that the Stuarts could favor Scotland after a successful Jacobite movement without getting themselves kicked out yet again, that Roman Germania would have been a good idea and others (I just named three I've been in threads where they come up).

So of course feasible things can happen. Now if only whether or not something was feasible was something that would actually discourage pursuing it.

That's why I posted that quote. It is a revered tradition here that naysayers are some kind of awful hideous thing and that people calling out the implausibility of something are tantamount to trolls.

And it's very annoying, and very bad for serious discussion of alternate history as opposed to fantasy fiction.

On a smaller scale, not big as Roman Germania or invading Frisia if you catch my drift
 
Reading some threads, I noticed that many people is so focused in the social-political issues of their stories that ignore that biological and environmental issues has also played an important role in OTL history, so it should be considered in alternate ones.

The most common incongruencies I've found are:

- New World population not affected by the diseases of Old World conquerors. In every possible scenario, any New World power would have been greatly affected by European diseases, especially smallpox. Europeans in America have been the greatest (though unintentional) biological weapon in history. So, a New World Empire surviving the colonisation era seems unlikely by this only reason.

- Central Asian migrations not happening at the Hunni era. Well, considering that climate change made Central Asia an unsuitable area for humans living at the time, is not realistic to think that those peoples would die of starvation there without moving anywhere.

- Early globalisation not causing more environmental ravage. In some threads, early globalisation (caused by faster technical development) is proposed without considering the environmental problems it would have caused. Considering that human mind usually have evolutioned slower than technology, a faster globalisation would have caused a greater disynchrony between human environmental impact and social conciousness about ecological problems. It could appear something trivial but it is not; a good example is the Easter Island.
 
The most common incongruencies I've found are:

- New World population not affected by the diseases of Old World conquerors. In every possible scenario, any New World power would have been greatly affected by European diseases, especially smallpox. Europeans in America have been the greatest (though unintentional) biological weapon in history. So, a New World Empire surviving the colonisation era seems unlikely by this only reason.

Eh? Examples? Obviously my timelines have Native Americans with 'counter' biological weapons, but I don't recall people writing timelines where Eurasian disease's effects on the Native Americans are ignored.

- Early globalisation not causing more environmental ravage. In some threads, early globalisation (caused by faster technical development) is proposed without considering the environmental problems it would have caused. Considering that human mind usually have evolutioned slower than technology, a faster globalisation would have caused a greater disynchrony between human environmental impact and social conciousness about ecological problems. It could appear something trivial but it is not; a good example is the Easter Island.


Charles Mann's 1493 has some very interesting discussions of the negative environmental consequences of the period of pre-industrial globalization that Columbus kicked off, such as the effect of maize agriculture on erosion in China and the introduction of pigs to North America.
 
Eh? Examples? Obviously my timelines have Native Americans with 'counter' biological weapons, but I don't recall people writing timelines where Eurasian disease's effects on the Native Americans are ignored.

Not especifically, but I remember some timelines about early Roman colonisation of North American where the Roman colonies co-existed with neighbouring New World powers. That's highly unrealistic, because, even if those Roman visitors would have been peaceful, any contact with those New World powers (implying some form of evolutioned society where diseases can spread, not isolated tribes) could have annihilated them (remember that only smallpox could kill 80-90% of Native American population in a brief time).

Charles Mann's 1493 has some very interesting discussions of the negative environmental consequences of the period of pre-industrial globalization that Columbus kicked off, such as the effect of maize agriculture on erosion in China and the introduction of pigs to North America.

Certainly, the worst effect was the unintentional introduction of black rats in the American ecosystems, through the European ships. Black rats caused the extinction of many species of animals and plants that couldn't fight such an aggresive invasive species. Some of these species were of human interest, like the mohuy and the quemí in Hispaniola, whose meat was consumed by Taino people.
 
Not especifically, but I remember some timelines about early Roman colonisation of North American where the Roman colonies co-existed with neighbouring New World powers. That's highly unrealistic, because, even if those Roman visitors would have been peaceful, any contact with those New World powers (implying some form of evolutioned society where diseases can spread, not isolated tribes) could have annihilated them (remember that only smallpox could kill 80-90% of Native American population in a brief time).

Ah, I see. It's actually a little more defensible than you might think. In Roman times, the population of Europe was much lower and less dense than in the Early Modern Era, so diseases were not as well established in the population. Rome itself was certainly a petri dish of disease given the crowding and trade that went into that city, but a Roman colonization of the New World (ASB IMHO, but bear with me) would not introduce diseases as quickly as the Spanish colonization did.
 
Ah, I see. It's actually a little more defensible than you might think. In Roman times, the population of Europe was much lower and less dense than in the Early Modern Era, so diseases were not as well established in the population. Rome itself was certainly a petri dish of disease given the crowding and trade that went into that city, but a Roman colonization of the New World (ASB IMHO, but bear with me) would not introduce diseases as quickly as the Spanish colonization did.

I think it could have been even worse. Scientists that have modeled historical vectors of disease agreed that the problem with smallpox in America relied in that only one carrier of the disease (i.e. European conqueror, visitor or trader) could spread it in a relatively large community without any natural defense against it.
The fact is that smallpox killed Native American communities that even lacked direct contact with Europeans but with neighbouring communities that effectively had it.
The Spanish colonisation introduced the pandemia in the Americas BUT at the same time, Spanish mixed quickly with the local population, introducing the resistance to smallpox in their genetic pool. That's why later Mestizo population (mixture of Native and Spanish) was not so sensitive to smallpox ravages and survived, while isolated tribes continued to succumb.
Imagine that Romans would have entered the Americas with an smaller pool of people. Smallpox would have been introduced anyway, but probably the Roman American would have been not enough populous to mix with locals quickly enough to create an effective mixed population resistant to smallpox. Not to say that, with an smaller population, resistance to smallpox would have been weaker due to reduced genetic pool.

NOTE: The Norse probably didn't carry smallpox or similars to the Americas because these kind of disease was rare among Nordic peoples at that time, while it was more common in the Mediterranean area.
 
Two years is a long time to wait, especially given the shortage of grazing land for horses in much of Europe. I remember someone calculating that even the Hungarian plain would only support 40,000 Mongols' horses (keeping in mind that each soldier would have several horses, as per their usual tactics) for a pretty brief period. Geography also becomes a bitch here; crossing the Danube can only be done at a few places, pretty much all of which are fortified. It's not that European castles are invincible, but the combination of their presence and numbers, the existence of geographic choke points like the Danube and the Carpathians, and the dearth of grazing for Mongol horses severely limits how far the hordes could go before having to fall back to better pastures.

Oh, and encountering more heavily armored enemies in such rugged terrain would mess the Mongols up, as well.

Only 40000 horses? That number sounds a bit low. Can we get more details of the calculation?

European geography is tricky, but China also has high mountains and big rivers, and it didn't help them. The Volga is a bigger river than any other in Europe, and the Mongols crossed it.

Castles are quite some defense, but the Mongols managed to take Chinese and Islamic fortresses, which are on a higher technological level. And the Mongols have gunpowder.

And about knights: In the battle of Liegnitz/Legnica, the Teutonic knights and their allies were trounced by the Mongols. The Mongols used their usual tactic: A fake retreat, the knights attack, throw caution in the wind, also the majority of the Mongols are hidden behind a smoke screen... the knights were slaughtered.

If anything, the Mongols may ignore Europe because it was too poor. The silver mines of Tyrol aren't open yet, Europe doesn't have silk like China...

Prussia always wins the Franco-Prussian War. No matter what level of PoD occurs, Prussia wins. And will, no matter what, take Alsace-Lorraine. As long as it happens in the mid/late 19th century, France loses.

Admittedly, Prussia had the industrial areas of the Ruhr, the Saar and Upper Silesia. That helps.

Also, the fact that they could occasionally force a surrender of a fortress or fortified city obviously indicates that the thousands of castles in central Europe will be less than speed bumps to their advance. Oh, and they'll never find themselves at such a tactical disadvantage that their horse archers would find themselves in melee against armored knights, so they'll never lose to a European army. Nope, delay their political troubles and they'll be right up against the English Channel before you know it.

See above.
 
Only 40000 horses? That number sounds a bit low. Can we get more details of the calculation?

Ugh. Sorry I worded that so poorly. I meant horses for 40,000 soldiers. If you assume each one has four horses, that's 160,000 horses as a conservative estimate. As for calculations, I went and took a look for the original document, but it doesn't seem to be available anymore.

European geography is tricky, but China also has high mountains and big rivers, and it didn't help them. The Volga is a bigger river than any other in Europe, and the Mongols crossed it.

Castles are quite some defense, but the Mongols managed to take Chinese and Islamic fortresses, which are on a higher technological level. And the Mongols have gunpowder.

The issue with terrain - and the Carpathians in particular - is that the basin forms a double chokepoint. The northern route goes through Bohemia - heavily mountainous and forested, not horse archer country for sure. The southern route has better grazing and open terrain. The Hungarian Plain is down this way, and the Mongols approached this direction OTL. The issue here is that the only way west leads through a narrow pass directly across Vienna - and this route has been continuously fortified for centuries by the 13th century because of all the invaders that have come this way in generations past. It's not that the terrain alone will stop you, it's that it pretty much forces you to confront the heaviest defenses head on.

Higher technology doesn't necessarily make for better castle construction. And if you look closely at Mongol history, you'll notice that the most heavily defended cities and fortresses either took them a very long time to besiege or else were intimidated into surrendering. It seems silly to assume they'd always be that fortunate.

As for gunpowder, remember that the Mongols invaded Europe in the 1240's. Gunpowder didn't make for effective siege weapons until later. You certainly don't hear about Mongol cannons much, do you?

The real problem here is that the castles and terrain will slow the Mongols down considerably, and once their armies are stalled, the horses will die off from lack of grazing. It's a pretty common circumstance in siege warfare, and a big part of the reason why all-cavalry armies have never stayed in Europe for long, historically.

And about knights: In the battle of Liegnitz/Legnica, the Teutonic knights and their allies were trounced by the Mongols. The Mongols used their usual tactic: A fake retreat, the knights attack, throw caution in the wind, also the majority of the Mongols are hidden behind a smoke screen... the knights were slaughtered.

Never said that Mongols couldn't beat knights, just that they wouldn't always do so. If Patay had never happened, would you assume that longbowmen were invincible against knights? I'd think Ain Jalut or Lechfeld would be good enough examples of what happens when your light cavalry army gets engaged by heavier troops in close combat. My larger point being that tactical success comes and goes, and that if your army can't cope with the consequences, then you can't count on winning every time.

If anything, the Mongols may ignore Europe because it was too poor. The silver mines of Tyrol aren't open yet, Europe doesn't have silk like China...

By the 1200's that was less true than you'd think. The wool trade was really starting to come into its own at this point, enriching cities like Antwerp and Bruges. And the Italian cities were loaded, of course. France also experienced an immense population boom in this period. Really, the 13th century was the time Europe stopped being a backwater and started really pulling closer to the Middle East.
 

Deleted member 67076

The Great American Butterfly net

Any POD that's in the New World (even one that's set 100,000 years back!) will never affect the Old world until 1492
 
The Great American Butterfly net

Any POD that's in the New World (even one that's set 100,000 years back!) will never affect the Old world until 1492

Yeah, guilty as charged. It's entirely a decision of story over science in alt-hist. Part of me really wants to start messing with Europe at the time of the Vinland contact, but another, bigger part of me wants to mess with OTL's 16th-century history (as Space Oddity put it once, "when everything was up in the air").

That said, if your dealing with climactic butterflies from an agricultural POD, those would be so far reaching as to make the world entirely unrecognizable everywhere, but with no easy way to determine the chain of cause and effect for the butterflies. So, that's why we "civilization building" writers all politely ignore those butterflies.
 
Top