India without the British

[Faeelin]

Maratha Empire will be much stronger than OTL, probably intimidating enough for the Brits to decide its not worth conquering. And so on.

The Maratha Empire was never quite an Empire; one analogy I've seen that's fairly apt is the Holy Roman Empire (given its lack of a centralized government, no real fiscal apparatus, etc).

this isn't insurmountable, but you will have to get an Indian state to build a modern fiscal apparatus.

 

[Analytical Engine]

French India would be very interesting, politically, economically and socially.

EDIT: Can anyone recommend some TLs that features a French India?

Look to the West (French Carnatic).

Vive la Francewank (shameless plug) - France is just starting to gain strong influence in India.

 

[Thande]

Look to the West (French Carnatic).

My logic behind that one was that a lot of TLs tend to just replace Britain with France (e.g. Cliveless World) but if you're starting from a mid-18th century POD, Britain is already well entrenched in Bengal and it's only the Carnatic being fought over. So OTL - Britain wins and adds the Carnatic to its Indian holdings, ATL - France wins and gets the Carnatic but Britain still has Bengal. It would take another round of war with strong French support of its forces in India to drive Britain out altogether, and that's quite unlikely given Bourbon France's historical lack of enthusiasm for sending adequate support to its colonial wars. Even in LTTW I suspect the British could have driven the French out of the Carnatic during the Third War of Supremacy (OTL 7 Years' War) if it hadn't been for the lack of Clive of India and Siraj ud-Daulat's backstab.

 

[Beedok]

My logic behind that one was that a lot of TLs tend to just replace Britain with France (e.g. Cliveless World) but if you're starting from a mid-18th century POD, Britain is already well entrenched in Bengal and it's only the Carnatic being fought over. So OTL - Britain wins and adds the Carnatic to its Indian holdings, ATL - France wins and gets the Carnatic but Britain still has Bengal. It would take another round of war with strong French support of its forces in India to drive Britain out altogether, and that's quite unlikely given Bourbon France's historical lack of enthusiasm for sending adequate support to its colonial wars. Even in LTTW I suspect the British could have driven the French out of the Carnatic during the Third War of Supremacy (OTL 7 Years' War) if it hadn't been for the lack of Clive of India and Siraj ud-Daulat's backstab.

Yeah, working on my current TL it seemed that France really didn't have much of a chance to get Britain out. France just didn't really seem to care as much.

 

[Thande]

Yeah, workinh on my current TL it seemed that France really didn't have much of a chance to get Britain out. France just didn't really seem to care as much.

Hence my strategy was 'if you want France to pay attention to its colonies, have it keep enough of them that when the Revolution happens, the monarchy can hold on in the colonies and use them as a base to fight back'.

 

[Grey Wolf]

Cliveless World

That looks impressive; I will have a read!

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

French Peninsula, British Bengal, Sikh Indo-Gangetic Plain. Pure awesomeness.

So your POD would have Robert Clive randomly deciding one morning that he should kill himself? "He attached a rope around his neck and tied it off to the ceiling, cocked his pistol and stabbed himself through the mouth with his sword."

He did attempt at least twice, IIRC.

 

[Sol Zagato]

French Peninsula, British Bengal, Sikh Indo-Gangetic Plain. Pure awesomeness.



He did attempt at least twice, IIRC.

My take: French south, Maratha Deccan, Sikh north, British Bengal. Certain relations of mine would be rich decadent nobility instead of plain-ol decadent nobility.

Fun fact: You know how every damm place on the east coast of the US will advertise with "Washington slept here" or some such nonsense? Traveling through Maharastra, I couldn't help but notice that the guidebook would point out many places with "Shivaji killed someone here" or "Shivaji escaped an ambush here." A much more colorful founding father.

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

My take: French south, Maratha Deccan, Sikh north, British Bengal. Certain relations of mine would be rich decadent nobility instead of plain-ol decadent nobility.

Fun fact: You know how every damm place on the east coast of the US will advertise with "Washington slept here" or some such nonsense? Traveling through Maharastra, I couldn't help but notice that the guidebook would point out many places with "Shivaji killed someone here" or "Shivaji escaped an ambush here." A much more colorful founding father.

Sivaji was far more badass. Dude wrecked the Mughals. Washington drove the Brits to conquer more places instead. Lame.

 

[Tobit]

Even without British political control, I still think British manufactured goods would have a huge market in India. Britain would still likely take India's opium crop and ship it to China. It might end up in the same way Britain didn't rule China but still economically dominated it.

 

[Beedok]

Hence my strategy was 'if you want France to pay attention to its colonies, have it keep enough of them that when the Revolution happens, the monarchy can hold on in the colonies and use them as a base to fight back'.

Doesn't really work in my world. However revolution shall be giving Britain more respect for her colonies.

 

[Faeelin]

Even without British political control, I still think British manufactured goods would have a huge market in India. Britain would still likely take India's opium crop and ship it to China. It might end up in the same way Britain didn't rule China but still economically dominated it.

The dyanmics owuld be very different. The EIC managed to deindustrialize India in short order and destroy its "capitalist" class. Maybe an independent India would be luckier.

 

[Tobit]

The dyanmics owuld be very different. The EIC managed to deindustrialize India in short order and destroy its "capitalist" class. Maybe an independent India would be luckier.

Was the deindustrialization actually due to direct EIC involvement or was it an after effect of British comparative advantage in price?

 

[tormsen]

Even without British political control, I still think British manufactured goods would have a huge market in India.

Would this mean that the relationship between Britain and India would be more akin to the relationship between Britain and South America? Unspoken economic dominance but hands-off on most of the politics?

 

[Badshah]

The French would colonize Southern India, Portugal might colonize a bit further into the country, and the Netherlands would establish a firm hold on Ceylon. Besides this, however, a confederation similar to the Marathas would emerge, with maybe a new Delhi Sultanate being at the forefront, or perhaps Panjab.