If the July 20th Plot Had Succeeded...

Very good research; not sure what any of this has to do with the July 20th plot, but I'm impressed, anyway. :cool:

Same. Anyways, I don't think the Plot's success will radically change how the Allies occupy Germany. The Soviets will still get their eastern zone, and with the Wehrmacht falling apart they'll get roughly the same territory as IOTL.
 

Stolengood

Banned
Would the Allies see the advantage an earlier post-war government would bring? Stability, Germans who know how to get their country back on the right track, etc...
 
Very good research; not sure what any of this has to do with the July 20th plot, but I'm impressed, anyway. :cool:

Thank you both.

I needed to think a bit, but I think you can find a connection.
One is connected to the unconditional surrender and the known conditions that would follow. It has been argued that unconditional surrender discouraged some of German generals from making a coup who might otherwise joined a rebellion, since:

"those Germans — and particularly those German generals — who might have been ready to throw Hitler over, and were able to do so, were discouraged from making the attempt by their inability to extract from the Allies any sort of assurance that such action would improve the treatment meted out to their country."
http://www.jstor.org/stable/2614534

Unfortunately you can only get the first half of the sentence above free from the JSTOR link.

The treatment that was about to be meted out to Germany was partly known and partly hyped, and many therefore probably felt it was better to fight on in the hope of securing better terms. Remember what happened in the end after the surrender. You had 25% of the original country annexed by the Allies (most of the annexed areas had been German since the middle ages), 12 million Germans expelled (today its called ethnic cleansing), millions of German military personnel doing forced labor for several years, the country divided etc. That is fairly well known.

Less known are things such as that U.S. troops were forbidden to provide food to German civilians, excess food was to be destroyed or rendered inedible, etc.
http://www.independent.org/publications/tir/article.asp?a=599

You had signs with "You are guilty!" put up everywhere.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eure_Schuld.jpg

But all that is what happened after the surrender and would only partly be known before the surrender. Before the surrender the German people knew that the surrender would be unconditional, and that the Morgenthau plan had been proposed, thanks to a press leak.

On 11th December 1944, OSS operative William Donovan sent U.S. President Roosevelt a telegraph message from Bern. The message was a translation of a recent article in the Neue Zürcher Zeitung:
(Click on "View Next Page" a few times to get to the text itself)
http://docs.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/psf/box32/t298m01.html

"It took a catastrophe last Summer to bring the internal opposition into the open. Could that opposition offer the German people a better peace than the Nazis? We think not.

So far, the Allies have not offered the opposition any serious encouragement. On the contrary, they have again and again welded together the people and the Nazis by statements published, either out of indifference or with a purpose.

To take a recent example, the Morgenthau plan gave Dr. Goebbels the best possible chance. He was able to prove to his countrymen, in black and white, that the enemy planned the enslavement of Germany."

... "The conviction that Germany had nothing to expect from defeat but oppresion and exploitation still prevails, and that accounts for the fact that the Germans continue to fight. It is not a question of a regime, but of the homeland itself, and to save that, every German is bound to obey the call, whether he be Nazi or member of the opposition."


I forgot to add my conclusion: History would have ended the same way as it did in the real world.

There are too many reasons for the Generals to side with the old regime, so I don't see how the plot could succeed. If it did succeed it would find itself in a position to have to continue the war, since no better surrender terms would be given to the new government. According to a discovery program I saw (discovery mainly produces crap as far as history is concerned, but anyway) most of the actual plotters were motivated by reasons of conscience after finding out about the Holocaust. None of them knew the full extent of it though, I think Canaris though just a few hundred thousand had been killed. It would be difficult to find a motivator for enough others to side with them. Also the Allies were apparently not interested in a coup against Hitler.

"...Instructed to respond to requests from Supreme Headquarters, he drafted proposals for psychological warfare approaches to critical situations at the front only to discover that a SHAEF directive banned calls to the Germans to revolt."
http://www.psupress.org/books/titles/0-271-02314-7.html
 
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...so, there should've been conditions imposed on the surrender, you're saying?

I'm not necessarily saying that but probably yes, if the Allies had wanted to end the war (and Holocaust) sooner they should have offered the Generals a peace they could live with, at least a peace where they could see a future for their people even if they themselves would hang or go to prison together with the Nazis. I'm sure many would be willing to sacrifice themselves for their countrymen, especially if they could avoid the expulsions that in the real timeline killed 1 or 2 million civilians (I'm assuming the dead were mainly women and children since the men would have been in camps by then)

One big hinder towards achieving this was that in the US the German people was seen as inherently sick and militaristic, so nothing short of complete destruction was acceptable.

You had propaganda campaigns arguing that the Germans were inherently sick and dangerous as a people.
http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/736/1/Campaign_Harsh_Peace_History.pdf

I think this instruction movie for occupation troops from 1945 shows the symptoms and thinking very clearly. It's called "Your job in Germany", in case the link stops working.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgLOij3V4PU
 
I'm not necessarily saying that but probably yes, if the Allies had wanted to end the war (and Holocaust) sooner they should have offered the Generals a peace they could live with, at least a peace where they could see a future for their people even if they themselves would hang or go to prison together with the Nazis. I'm sure many would be willing to sacrifice themselves for their countrymen, especially if they could avoid the expulsions that in the real timeline killed 1 or 2 million civilians (I'm assuming the dead were mainly women and children since the men would have been in camps by then)

One big hinder towards achieving this was that in the US the German people was seen as inherently sick and militaristic, so nothing short of complete destruction was acceptable.

You had propaganda campaigns arguing that the Germans were inherently sick and dangerous as a people.
http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/736/1/Campaign_Harsh_Peace_History.pdf

I think this instruction movie for occupation troops from 1945 shows the symptoms and thinking very clearly. It's called "Your job in Germany", in case the link stops working.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgLOij3V4PU

It would have massively helped if the generals hadn't created the Stab In the Back myth in the wake of an equal disaster in the first go-round. Unfortunately Germany's general officers were not worthy the men that served under them.
 

Garrison

Donor
It would have massively helped if the generals hadn't created the Stab In the Back myth in the wake of an equal disaster in the first go-round. Unfortunately Germany's general officers were not worthy the men that served under them.

And there was the utter determination that this time the German people would know they had been defeated and led to disaster by the military adventures of their leaders, and you would have to say it pretty much worked.
 
And there was the utter determination that this time the German people would know they had been defeated and led to disaster by the military adventures of their leaders, and you would have to say it pretty much worked.

Yes, it did. And again it would have been much more convincing on the part of the generals if they'd started doing all that before Hitler's murder-campaign they all participated in started going sour. Otherwise it sounds like they were fine with Hitler until he started losing the war......
 

Stolengood

Banned
I'm pretty sure the men who actually started the plot were first alarmed by the war-mongering, not by the actual thing going sour; it took a while to convince other people, but it really just built from there...
 
I'm pretty sure the men who actually started the plot were first alarmed by the war-mongering, not by the actual thing going sour; it took a while to convince other people, but it really just built from there...

Fairly sure that's not the case, as their plots never got off the furtive glances in smoke-filled rooms phase. It took guys like Elzer to really do what the generals made a lot of noise about doing. The only German generals with a moral backbone either did not join Hitler's armies or were fired for telling him how crazy he was before he started it all.
 

Stolengood

Banned
Actually, I'm fairly sure it is the case...

Since 1938, conspiratorial groups planning an overthrow of some kind had existed in the German Army (Wehrmacht Heer) and in the German Military Intelligence Organization (Abwehr). Early leaders of these plots included Brigadier-General Hans Oster, General Ludwig Beck and Field Marshal Erwin von Witzleben. Oster was the deputy head of the Military Intelligence Office, Beck was a former Chief-of-Staff of the German Army High Command (Oberkommando des Heeres, OKH), and Von Witzleben was the former commander of the German 1st Army and the former Commander-in-Chief of the German Army Command in the West (Oberbefehlshaber West, or OB West). They soon established contacts with several prominent civilians, including Carl Goerdeler, the former mayor of Leipzig, and Helmuth James Graf von Moltke, the great-grandnephew of the hero of the Franco-Prussian War.

Military conspiratorial groups exchanged ideas with civilian, political and intellectual resistance groups in the Kreisauer Kreis (which met at the von Moltke estate in Kreisau) and in other secret circles. Moltke was against killing Hitler; instead, he wanted him placed on trial. Moltke said, "we are all amateurs and would only bungle it". Moltke also believed killing Hitler would be hypocritical. Hitler and National Socialism had turned "wrong-doing" into a system, something which the resistance should avoid.

Plans to stage an overthrow and prevent Hitler from launching a new world war were developed in 1938 and 1939, but were aborted because of the indecision of Army Generals Franz Halder and Walther von Brauchitsch, and the failure of the western powers to oppose Hitler's aggressions until 1939. This first military resistance group delayed their plans after Hitler's extreme popularity following the unexpectedly rapid success in the battle for France.

In 1942, a new conspiratorial group formed, led by Colonel Henning von Tresckow, a member of Field Marshal Fedor von Bock's staff, who commanded Army Group Centre in Operation Barbarossa. Tresckow systematically recruited oppositionists to the Group’s staff, making it the nerve centre of the Army resistance. Little could be done against Hitler as he was heavily guarded, and none of the plotters could get near enough to him.

During 1942, Oster and Tresckow nevertheless succeeded in rebuilding an effective resistance network. Their most important recruit was General Friedrich Olbricht, head of the General Army Office headquarters at the Bendlerblock in central Berlin, who controlled an independent system of communications to reserve units throughout Germany. Linking this asset to Tresckow's resistance group in Army Group Centre created a viable coup apparatus.

In late 1942, Tresckow and Olbricht formulated a plan to assassinate Hitler and stage an overthrow during Hitler's visit to the headquarters of Army Group Centre at Smolensk in March 1943, by placing a bomb on his plane. The bomb failed to detonate, and a second attempt a week later with Hitler at an exhibition of captured Soviet weaponry in Berlin also failed. These failures demoralised the conspirators. During 1943 Tresckow tried without success to recruit senior Army field commanders such as Field Marshal Erich von Manstein and Field Marshal Gerd von Rundstedt, to support a seizure of power. Tresckow in particular worked on his Commander-in-Chief of Army Group Centre, Field Marshal Günther von Kluge to persuade him to move against Hitler and at times succeeded in gaining his consent, only to find him indecisive at the last minute.
 
Actually, I'm fairly sure it is the case...

Some plans if a random guy setting a bomb in a beer hall was able to penetrate all this vaunted security. :rolleyes: And in any event if they were plotting to overthrow the guy before he did anything out of the norm for his time and was taking Germany from strength to strength, it's again worth asking why it is that random people came closer to killing Hitler than they did with all these plans?
 
I'm pretty sure the men who actually started the plot were first alarmed by the war-mongering, not by the actual thing going sour; it took a while to convince other people, but it really just built from there...

Speaking to Germans from that era they are pretty clear they and the German people for the most part did want the war. They wanted to take the Treaty of Versailles stuff it down the French and British's throat and kick them in the ass.

But, the image people have today of the war as one to wipe out the Jews, Slavs and other races from Europe was not what the mainstream German population at all had in mind when they supported war to resolve what they saw as unfinished business from two decades earlier.

Hitler and Himmler hijacked the German populations support for war to try to also fulfill their moronic racial theories. It was the latter that made the German people so hated as it was and is very hard to understand for people not in Germany at the time that support for the war did not mean support for death factories.

Now one can argue that they were stupid and should have know it would have led to that, but the entire world had spies in Germany and knew what Hitler was saying and doing better then the German people whose press was totally controlled well before the war started and they didn't know that was going to happen.
 
Considering how often Operation Valkyrie has been argued here, we should probably have a Master Valkyrie Thread List just like we do for Sea Lion.
 
Could this be the place for it? ;)

This is the second July 20 thread to have gotten this long.

There was another one a year or two ago written by General Zod that got even longer and had a full-fledged scenario:

Details I remembered included the successful extrication of at least some of Army Group Center (?) from Bagration, Americans suddenly being less willing to fight German (highly dubious), the death of De Gaulle (possible), and the semi-restoration of the German monarchy with those opposed being allowed to call him President (bizarre and implausible).

There are also a bunch of little ones.
 

Stolengood

Banned
Well, this is my first thread to go this far, myself; I'm a little proud, even if it hasn't exactly gone the way I wanted it to... :p
 
Speaking to Germans from that era they are pretty clear they and the German people for the most part did want the war. They wanted to take the Treaty of Versailles stuff it down the French and British's throat and kick them in the ass.

But, the image people have today of the war as one to wipe out the Jews, Slavs and other races from Europe was not what the mainstream German population at all had in mind when they supported war to resolve what they saw as unfinished business from two decades earlier.

Hitler and Himmler hijacked the German populations support for war to try to also fulfill their moronic racial theories. It was the latter that made the German people so hated as it was and is very hard to understand for people not in Germany at the time that support for the war did not mean support for death factories.

Now one can argue that they were stupid and should have know it would have led to that, but the entire world had spies in Germany and knew what Hitler was saying and doing better then the German people whose press was totally controlled well before the war started and they didn't know that was going to happen.

Except they voted in Hitler and his cronies when they promised exactly this......
 
Except they voted in Hitler and his cronies when they promised exactly this......

Hitler and his cronies made clear to the public when they got into power their plan was to expel the Jews from Germany which they did in the pre-war period. Then once they took over the countries the Jews mostly left to there was a debate about where to send them (Africa vs Poland) in the German government, the SS won out and they told the German people they would bring them all to Poland to live in peace and security with their fellow Jews. All through the mass slaughter in Poland the SS made fake videos for the German people about the positive conditions of Jews in Poland.

If you want to resurrect X quote from Himmer or Hitler from the teens or 20s showing that they were genocidal go right ahead. There were more then a few quotes out there that implied Germany's last dictator Kaiser Wilhelm II would back the mass murder of Jews in Germany, he never did though. There are quotes from Iran's current leader saying in effect he believes the entire state of Israel needs to be wiped out, but that doesn't mean he will try to do so.
 
Hitler and his cronies made clear to the public when they got into power their plan was to expel the Jews from Germany which they did in the pre-war period. Then once they took over the countries the Jews mostly left to there was a debate about where to send them (Africa vs Poland) in the German government, the SS won out and they told the German people they would bring them all to Poland to live in peace and security with their fellow Jews. All through the mass slaughter in Poland the SS made make videos for the German conditions about the positive conditions of Jews in Poland.

If you want to resurrect X quote from Himmer or Hitler from the teens or 20s showing that they were genocidal go right ahead. There were more then a few quotes out there that implied Germany's last dictator Kaiser Wilhelm II would back the mass murder of Jews in Germany, he never did though. There are quotes from Iran's current leader saying in effect he believes the entire state of Israel needs to be wiped out, but that doesn't mean he will try to do so.

No, Hitler's book made it clear he was going to kill all the Jews and go to war with the USSR, his behavior pattern prior to the war showed a direct contingency plans. Incidentally, when did Ali Khameini say anything like what you've said he did?
 
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