The Marian reforms are greatly overstated. Rome didn't have a fully standing, professional military until Augustus established it in the wake of the civil war. The empire was perfectly capable of maintaining a standing army capable of defending the empire well into the dominate. It was the emperors having to constantly give gifts to the army and frequently increase their pay that caused budgetary problems, inflation, and political instability. With a surviving republic, there's no need to bribe the legions every time there's a leadership change.
How to fix Rome - the republic - the imperial inflation?
- Thread starter Vabasion
- Start date
It was only after Mariuss reforms that Roman armies are willing to follow their generals into the city and have their loyalty not to Rome but to man that commands them, pays them and will give them their retirement. It’s a decay point that doomed so many future emperors and the republic itself. All because senators were too greedy.
If that's the case then why were there six large armies who fought for the republic during the civil wars?
Karl der Große
Banned
Sulla's army following him to Rome had way more to do with restoring legal order than any loyalty they had to him.
Exactly. I'm always amazed by people's deterministic attitude with the Roman Republic. It's almost like they're debating a caricature.
Same reasons why they fought for both Marius and Sula, Cesar and his opponents, the Triumvirs etc. personal gain and loyalty.
What legal order? He was legally recalled from command and replaced by Marius and instead he marches the army to Rome and seizes control for first time in Roman history?
Karl der Große
Banned
Hard to consider it legal when the consuls declared iustitium the first time it was proposed, until Sulpicius Rufus started a riot and forced them on threat of death to withdraw the iustitium. To add to my opinion that while there are no records to it, I believe at least one of the ten tribunes of plebs would have been against the laws stripping Sulla of his command, and would have interceded with his veto. Whether he was killed or simply ignored, who knows. It's hard to imagine a recent war hero consul without a tribune of the plebs or two in his pocket.
So you're saying the soldiers who fought explicitly to restore the Roman Republic... fought only for money and personal loyalty?
Why would they be left alone? They weren't left alone by previous Celtic and Germanic invaders. The Alps have been crossed time and time again by barbarians.
Last edited:
Not let alone, but they would still have an easier time, as the eastern barbarians (the Huns and the Goths) would have gone to Greece.
On top of that, TTL Rome would probably have built an Alpine Wall.
Last edited:
LEGALLY? When that was against all traditions of Rome? And I am talking not so much about the Assembly changing assignments traditionally giving by the Senate as that could be legal, but about the unprecedented stripping the rightful elected Consul of Rome of his command in favour of a private citizen, who had neither procinsular powers or any rights to it. When Marius had used the Assembly for taking over the command of the war against Jugurtha he was the Consul so that was still justifiable and during the war against the Cimbri he was always the Consul, who was another violation of the traditions but he still had legally the titles for taking command of the army. During the war against the Socii, Marius was never formally in charge of his army as he was under the orders of the Consul or pro Consul who had appointed him as his own Legate or kept the command while waiting for the successor, but for the war against Mithridate? Marius had no legal title for being allowed to take the job of commander of the army who was reserved to the highest elected representatives of Rome (so Consuls, either in charge or just after their Consulate, or Pretors for the less important provinces) and their staff
Currency reform of Diocletian
Proclamation of Monetary Reform by Emperor Diocletian
To the Esteemed Citizens of the Great Roman Empire,
In the providence of the divine and the steadfast resolve of your Emperor, a new dawn rises upon our mighty empire—a dawn of prosperity, stability, and enduring strength. As your sovereign, tasked by the heavens to guide Rome to its destined glory, I stand before you today to herald a transformative reform that shall secure our economic foundations and ensure the welfare of every Roman, from the bustling streets of Rome to the furthest reaches of our vast dominions.
Our empire, the beacon of civilization, has weathered many storms through the valor of its legions and the resilience of its people. Yet, as we turn our gaze inward, we confront a foe not of flesh and blood but of metal and measure—a debasement of our currency that has eroded the very fabric of our economic might. It is a challenge that calls for not just action but innovation, courage, and unity.
Thus, by the power vested in me and with the wisdom of our ancestors guiding our path, I announce today a bold and unprecedented monetary reform. This reform is conceived in the spirit of Roman ingenuity and resolve, designed to restore the integrity of our currency and with it, the prosperity of our empire.
The Cornerstones of Our Reform:
Introduction of a Temporary Currency: In the coming days, we shall commence the issuance of a temporary currency—tokens of paper and clay, crafted with the highest standards of Roman artisanship. These tokens shall serve as a bridge, a temporary medium of exchange as we undertake the sacred task of purifying our coinage.
Retirement of the Debased Coinage: All citizens are called upon to exchange their current holdings of debased silver and gold coins for these temporary tokens, which shall be honored in all transactions throughout the empire. This exchange shall be conducted at designated centers, under the watchful eyes of our most trusted officials, ensuring fairness and transparency.
Minting of New Pure Coinage: Concurrently, the Empire shall embark on the minting of new coins, struck from pure silver and gold, to be the standard bearers of Roman economic might. These coins shall be a testament to our resolve, embodying the values of trust, purity, and stability.
Exchange of Temporary Currency for New Coinage: Upon the completion of this minting, a grand exchange shall take place, whereupon every token of temporary currency shall be exchanged for pure, new coins, marking the culmination of our reform and the beginning of a new era of economic stability.
Our Commitment to You:
This monumental task cannot be borne by the will of one alone. It demands a unity of purpose, a shared vision for the prosperity of Rome. As your Emperor, I pledge the full resources and resolve of the empire to ensure the success of this reform. Let every man, woman, and child rest assured that the value of their labor and savings shall be preserved and protected throughout this transition.
A Call to Unity:
In this momentous period, I call upon each of you to embrace this reform with the courage and determination that is the hallmark of the Roman spirit. Let us stand together, as one empire, one people, under the banners of trust, innovation, and prosperity.
Let the criers carry this message across our cities and villages, let it be inscribed on the walls of our forums and temples: Rome shall rise, not on the strength of its legions alone, but on the unbreakable resolve of its people to forge a future of unparalleled greatness.
May the gods favor our journey, and may the glory of Rome endure for a thousand generations.
By the Hand of Your Emperor, Diocletian
My general ideas:
Issue a temporary currency that can be exchanged for debased one. Standardized size, and anti-counterfeiting tricks will be used such as embedding something inside the coin which can be accessed by cracking it to check for validity, unique mixture of clay and additives as well as firing techniques to achieve special unique colors as well as centralized government controlled production centers with unique stamps. Paper currency would be similarly made, with unique fibers and rare dyes used with primitive watermarks utilized as well is possible.
Clay tokens are to replace coins of everyday use, while paper currency would be used as a voucher for large stockpiles of currency, usually in silver or gold weight rather than specific coin. They will all be given a clear expiration date to emphasize the fact this currency will be temporary and strengthen public confidence in government reform plan. The government will run and organize exchange mechanisms and facilities. To prevent speculation and price hikes the issuing of this temporary currency will be accompanied by an equally temporary price controls. All breeches of it will be severely punished, all counterfeiting attempts are to be punished by public execution of the offenders.
Criers, orators and others will be hired to spread the proclamation far and wide. Military garrisons and units will also be used to deploy the proclamation to remote areas as well. The government will lead the way in accepting said tokens as payment in its own business to demonstrate state backing.
Both distribution and redemption will be done at pre-planned redemption centers controlled and ran by the government with multiple points of control to prevent abuse and failure. Phase out will be done transparently, gradually and fully leading to a full phase out and replacement of both debased currency and temporary one for pure coinage.
If you have any criticisms or inputs to this idea they’d be greatly appreciated!
To the Esteemed Citizens of the Great Roman Empire,
In the providence of the divine and the steadfast resolve of your Emperor, a new dawn rises upon our mighty empire—a dawn of prosperity, stability, and enduring strength. As your sovereign, tasked by the heavens to guide Rome to its destined glory, I stand before you today to herald a transformative reform that shall secure our economic foundations and ensure the welfare of every Roman, from the bustling streets of Rome to the furthest reaches of our vast dominions.
Our empire, the beacon of civilization, has weathered many storms through the valor of its legions and the resilience of its people. Yet, as we turn our gaze inward, we confront a foe not of flesh and blood but of metal and measure—a debasement of our currency that has eroded the very fabric of our economic might. It is a challenge that calls for not just action but innovation, courage, and unity.
Thus, by the power vested in me and with the wisdom of our ancestors guiding our path, I announce today a bold and unprecedented monetary reform. This reform is conceived in the spirit of Roman ingenuity and resolve, designed to restore the integrity of our currency and with it, the prosperity of our empire.
The Cornerstones of Our Reform:
Introduction of a Temporary Currency: In the coming days, we shall commence the issuance of a temporary currency—tokens of paper and clay, crafted with the highest standards of Roman artisanship. These tokens shall serve as a bridge, a temporary medium of exchange as we undertake the sacred task of purifying our coinage.
Retirement of the Debased Coinage: All citizens are called upon to exchange their current holdings of debased silver and gold coins for these temporary tokens, which shall be honored in all transactions throughout the empire. This exchange shall be conducted at designated centers, under the watchful eyes of our most trusted officials, ensuring fairness and transparency.
Minting of New Pure Coinage: Concurrently, the Empire shall embark on the minting of new coins, struck from pure silver and gold, to be the standard bearers of Roman economic might. These coins shall be a testament to our resolve, embodying the values of trust, purity, and stability.
Exchange of Temporary Currency for New Coinage: Upon the completion of this minting, a grand exchange shall take place, whereupon every token of temporary currency shall be exchanged for pure, new coins, marking the culmination of our reform and the beginning of a new era of economic stability.
Our Commitment to You:
This monumental task cannot be borne by the will of one alone. It demands a unity of purpose, a shared vision for the prosperity of Rome. As your Emperor, I pledge the full resources and resolve of the empire to ensure the success of this reform. Let every man, woman, and child rest assured that the value of their labor and savings shall be preserved and protected throughout this transition.
A Call to Unity:
In this momentous period, I call upon each of you to embrace this reform with the courage and determination that is the hallmark of the Roman spirit. Let us stand together, as one empire, one people, under the banners of trust, innovation, and prosperity.
Let the criers carry this message across our cities and villages, let it be inscribed on the walls of our forums and temples: Rome shall rise, not on the strength of its legions alone, but on the unbreakable resolve of its people to forge a future of unparalleled greatness.
May the gods favor our journey, and may the glory of Rome endure for a thousand generations.
By the Hand of Your Emperor, Diocletian
My general ideas:
Issue a temporary currency that can be exchanged for debased one. Standardized size, and anti-counterfeiting tricks will be used such as embedding something inside the coin which can be accessed by cracking it to check for validity, unique mixture of clay and additives as well as firing techniques to achieve special unique colors as well as centralized government controlled production centers with unique stamps. Paper currency would be similarly made, with unique fibers and rare dyes used with primitive watermarks utilized as well is possible.
Clay tokens are to replace coins of everyday use, while paper currency would be used as a voucher for large stockpiles of currency, usually in silver or gold weight rather than specific coin. They will all be given a clear expiration date to emphasize the fact this currency will be temporary and strengthen public confidence in government reform plan. The government will run and organize exchange mechanisms and facilities. To prevent speculation and price hikes the issuing of this temporary currency will be accompanied by an equally temporary price controls. All breeches of it will be severely punished, all counterfeiting attempts are to be punished by public execution of the offenders.
Criers, orators and others will be hired to spread the proclamation far and wide. Military garrisons and units will also be used to deploy the proclamation to remote areas as well. The government will lead the way in accepting said tokens as payment in its own business to demonstrate state backing.
Both distribution and redemption will be done at pre-planned redemption centers controlled and ran by the government with multiple points of control to prevent abuse and failure. Phase out will be done transparently, gradually and fully leading to a full phase out and replacement of both debased currency and temporary one for pure coinage.
If you have any criticisms or inputs to this idea they’d be greatly appreciated!
RousseauX
Donor
Rome needed a system of sovereign debt
the reason why inflation occured is because every time during a major crisis you had to pay the army the emperor had to debase the coinage when he had an empty treasury; which was very frequent. It was the ony way they could raise funds in a hurry.
Modern governments can issue bonds to raise funds instead
I mean, the idea we know will work. But I doubt even Mark Anthony would have enough trust to be able to ask people to hand over gold and silver, in exchange for clay and paper. By the time of Diocletian, the bureaucratic apparatus is undergoing a slow breakdown.
Regardless of trust, the Empire simply is too large to have "mints" or "banks" where you can safely trade the currency back for gold. At least without huge losses.
Derek Pullem
Donor
Can't see this working at all. The "inflation" that Rome suffered was mostly due to debased currency. So what Diocletian is trying to do is issue IOU to reset the currency. Which as others have said requires a suspension of disbelief by the Roman citizenry. But to issue "pure" currency in return for debased coinage is going to bankrupt the Empire. The main reason for the debased coinage was that Rome did not have enough Silver (or Gold) to maintain its expenditure. By issuing "pure" coinage the Empire will suddenly find itself unable to pay the wages of its troops- and the remedy for that is to change the Emperor so that they will pay a large donative using even more debased coinage.
Well idea is to melt down the currency you regain, melt it down and return the silver value of debased coins you recollected. You’d not be trading one debased silver coin with 5% purity for a single coin of 99% purity.
As for income that is absolutely an issue for the empire and would need different economic reforms, primarily empire doing the taxation itself rather than trough selling tax collection off and probably disbanding professional army in exchange for levies.
Derek Pullem
Donor
But that assumes you will have 20x the purchasing power for your pure silver denarius as for the debased one. Effectively the same as slicing multiple zeros off the Weimar or Zimbabwe hyperinflation banknotes.
I'm unconvinced that Rome is societally advanced enough to do this effectively. Especially as the coins could be decades and sometimes centuries old.
Rome without a professional army becomes just another "barbarian" kingdom - even the Eastern Romans never made the transition completely to levy (thematic) based armies.
So essentially, you'd confirming people's fears upfront. Again, yes, me and you both know the scheme really does work after all, but good luck imposing it from scratch on Antiquity people that don't have hindsight and even a (modern) layman's understanding of economics.
Levies are not a great idea, either; they aren't exactly going to outperform professional armies, especially when facing often cavalry-based steppe nomads, something the Empire will need to do in order to remain safe and whole.
Yes. Which would allow bronze and copper coins to actually be used once again instead of being completely phased out due to low value of silver. And they were used for thousands of years up to that point, inflation simply made them obsolete.
Silver is silver fundamentally. Doesn’t matter how old, once you melt it down you can separate the actual silver from less valuable materials and recast it.
Rome simply can’t afford a professional army as it tried to. It was what led to ruin. Holding half a million or million men under arms at all times all at states expense is simply unsustainable as debasement of currency has shown. A smaller professional force to serve as a core with an actual large professional officer corps that would be kept in order to turn said levies into something useful would be the way to go. Legion itself means a levy. Levies is how legions functioned for almost a thousand years until Marius. As long as you pay your current batch of soldiers, and ensure officers of their own pay and continued service dismissing it should be relatively easy.
How? People weren’t even using the coins anymore for their stated value, simply silver content, and a lot of people refused coinage reverting back to payment in nature and barter for services.
Roman levies performed admirably against Cartage, Macedonia, Seleucids and various other successor kingdoms, various barbarians etc. It’s better have something less able that you can afford and won’t lead to a collapse than something good you can’t. As long as you have professional officers you can shape up an army quickly. It would also allow faster response since you won’t need to send existing legions on a trek to respond to raid but would rather be able to assemble a militia and levy as needed locally to respond to local issue, a large part of why feudalism became commonplace in Europe was that local ability of defense and action.