If Germany never asks for an armistice but fights until the end ala' WWII, how much longer will WWI last? I understand that there were plans already in preparation for offensives in 1919 but would it go until 1920? Beyond?
How Long Can WWI Last?
- Thread starter Kevin C. Smith
- Start date
cubefreak123
Banned
Germany was on the brink of collapse when it surrendered. The war would be done within a year if Germany kept in it, it just didn't have the capability to keep fighting.
I think the only way it goes longer is if German leadership decides not to swallow their pride and decides that it simply cannot except the Treaty of Versailles, re-initiates fighting and goes down to the bitter end Berlin 1945 style. Well either that or the progress of the four years of war are much less bloody (lower intensity battles) and thus allows the combatants to pace themselves and hold out longer.
If it lasted much longer Europe would have been engulfed in desertion, mutiny and revolution...I guess that would be Phase Two of the Great War* in the history books.
Ironically enough if you throw in the idea that the Germans simply found the Treaty of Versailles to onerous to accept, then France would wind up with the blame for the failure to end the war.
"In the name of wounded pride, the French sought to humiliate the German Empire. However they overreached and as a result the negotiations fell apart, setting the stage for the worst phase of the Great War. The Year of the Desertions." - William Rubinstein 'The Great War of Europe'
Could any of the European powers really convince their armies to go back into the fight after the armistice is started? If I remember right there were a few generals for whom it was a real concern (I'll have to dig out the info in the morning to be sure, and I have no idea how much basis in reality there was for such concerns) that everything was just so exhausted the troops would mutiny 1917 style.
I was thinking along the lines that no one proposes any armistice at all. Just a long, miserable fight to the very end. I imagine it would be some wretched state of exhaustion on both sides. But when?
That would make for an interesting timeline. Longer war leading to mass desertions and europe wide revolution. Kind of like a realistic *Kaiserreich
*Yes I know Kaiserreich isn't realistic.
*Yes I know Kaiserreich isn't realistic.
LordKalvert
Banned
Germany was in the midst of revolutionary anarchy, their Austrian, Bulgarian and Turkish allies had all surrendered. There is no hope of additional supplies reaching the front. All Germany may have been able to do is retreat behind the Rhine but the allies would have poured in from the South
Most importantly, there was no longer any will to fight on and mass surrenders were happening at the front.
So the answer would be a couple of weeks at most
Most importantly, there was no longer any will to fight on and mass surrenders were happening at the front.
So the answer would be a couple of weeks at most
It depends what the French were demanding. Look at the war in Turkey.
Well, if the Treaty of Sevres can spur the Turks into defending the integrity of their nation perhaps massive war-reparations, French occupation of the Rhineland and fairly significant German territorial losses in the east (i.e. Polish Corridor, part of Upper Silesia, etc) could make Ludendorff or someone else (maybe military advisor to Ottomans Hans von Seeckt?) consider grounds for continuing the fight with renewed vigor...
yourworstnightmare
Banned
As many have stated the economies of Europe had basically already collpased due to the war, and morale was overall low. If it had gone on much longer both Germany and France would have seen mass desertions and revoluitons.
I tend to agree, but a couple of weeks? By the time forces redeployed through Austria and threatened Southern Germany etc. More like a couple of months, perhaps 3-4.
LordKalvert
Banned
Assuming that anyone reports for their draft and the mass desertions and surrenders stop, maybe but in any case the German position is hopeless. Wars end when the will to fight is over and in this case, Germany's will is gone
Now there's a TL, the negotiations blow up, the next few months of 'war' results in mass desertions and with the threat of revolution imminent, everyone goes back to the negotiating table with the understanding that they need to hammer out a peace "With malice toward none, with charity for all..."
Since the whole "We need a scapegoat" shtick resulted in a bigger mess than before. <glares at France>
The longest possible war would result from France being beaten in 1914, but refusing surrender, moving the government to North Africa and calling on civilian resistance. A separate peace btw Russia and and the Central powers (With Italy, Turkey and Romania staying neutral) would leave Germany and AH at war war with Britain and colonial France, with an occupied France and Serbia to hold and no way to invade Britain or Africa. From then on it would be a case of who gives up first.
If Turkey is in the war, a stalemate in Egypt gives the same result but with more friction.
If Turkey is in the war, a stalemate in Egypt gives the same result but with more friction.
I think you can make a long war TL.
Let say 1916 goes differently.
Falkenhayen does Verdun differently with different goals, he attacks west of the Meuse too, gets lucky on weather, and pushes harder at first, takes Verdun quickly then breaks of the attack.
Germans plan a sharp limited summer offensive in the east with the Austrians (forgoing their own Italian offensive), Brusilov offensive is butterflied away, Rommania stays neutral and continues to trade grain and oil to Germany.
Falkenhayen remains in charge, the Hindenburg/Ludendorf economic plan screw ups are avoided and German production incrementally increases over OTL.
With Falkenhayen still in charge unrestricted submarine warfare never happens and the United States remains neutral which means a small but important amount of additional supply reaches Germany, things like Begian relief food supplies from USA still happen, a few extra submarine blockade runners carrying the most strategic of industrial supplies, like rubber, nickel, copper, and just neutral blockade runners still have acess to USA products.
Russia politics plays out roughly the same as OTL with an armistice being reached late 1917.
Britain and France have less USA money to work with and have to scale back their own attacks in 1917.
So you have 1918 with more German supply and less Allied supply and just no American forces so a statelmate of sort happens on the western front. A few German divisions stiffen Italy and Macedonia fronts.
Both sides fail to reach a peace agreement so this war goes on into 1920.
A peace is worked out finally in late 1920, Germany loses her colonies and Metz but keeps her vast gains in the east. Belgium is liberated. Germany agrees to no naval contruction for 10 years.
Let say 1916 goes differently.
Falkenhayen does Verdun differently with different goals, he attacks west of the Meuse too, gets lucky on weather, and pushes harder at first, takes Verdun quickly then breaks of the attack.
Germans plan a sharp limited summer offensive in the east with the Austrians (forgoing their own Italian offensive), Brusilov offensive is butterflied away, Rommania stays neutral and continues to trade grain and oil to Germany.
Falkenhayen remains in charge, the Hindenburg/Ludendorf economic plan screw ups are avoided and German production incrementally increases over OTL.
With Falkenhayen still in charge unrestricted submarine warfare never happens and the United States remains neutral which means a small but important amount of additional supply reaches Germany, things like Begian relief food supplies from USA still happen, a few extra submarine blockade runners carrying the most strategic of industrial supplies, like rubber, nickel, copper, and just neutral blockade runners still have acess to USA products.
Russia politics plays out roughly the same as OTL with an armistice being reached late 1917.
Britain and France have less USA money to work with and have to scale back their own attacks in 1917.
So you have 1918 with more German supply and less Allied supply and just no American forces so a statelmate of sort happens on the western front. A few German divisions stiffen Italy and Macedonia fronts.
Both sides fail to reach a peace agreement so this war goes on into 1920.
A peace is worked out finally in late 1920, Germany loses her colonies and Metz but keeps her vast gains in the east. Belgium is liberated. Germany agrees to no naval contruction for 10 years.