Thyme said:
Cattle can move along at a good clip when they decide to. Speaking as someone who has been chased by them on my grandfather's farm.
Horses?
- Thread starter Tynnin
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Cattle can move along at a good clip when they decide to. Speaking as someone who has been chased by them on my grandfather's farm.
if cattle had been selectively bred from the beginnings of human civilization though, wouldn't they be bred to be faster, etc.?
I'm not so sure about camels.. the old world ones evolved to take advantage of desert regions, a process that started long before humans started agriculture. In the absence of horses, I think cattle would expand into their niche.. heck, they were already in place, and occupy about the same niche anyway. Camels would still be domesticated as per OTL, and would probably spread farther than in OTL, but cattle are even more widespread to start with, and would be a more likely candidate for selective breeding... their wild ancestors lived all the way from Russia to southern India and SE Asia...Flocculencio said:
...The sheep-lords loomed larger and the fierce war-bleats of their mounts could now be heard. Tall and blond were the Roi-Tanners, wearers of helmets topped with cruel-looking spikes and small toothbrush mustaches. The wanderers saw too that they wore long boots and short leathern pants with suspenders and held long spikes that looked like lead-weighted dust-mops.
- Bored of the Rings, Chapter Six, "The Riders of Roi-Tan"
All hail the Holy Sheep! The best post ever!
Flocculencio
Donor
All hail the Holy Sheep! The best post ever!
You should read Bored of the Rings. It's horribly dated but still good for a laugh or two.
Max Sinister
Banned
I read BOTR. The humor isn't that great, it's in fact on a lower level than Porky's or American Pie, and occasionally racist too ("Hobbits are on the evolutionary ladder somewhere between rats, wolverines and Italians"). Only interesting detail: The German translator of BOTR also translated LOTR.
HueyLong
Banned
Going to have to join the camel bandwagon.
In areas where cattle would be bred for running speed, there simply weren't very many cattle. The central asian steppes had sheep, goats and camels.
In most areas, you'll need an agricultural base for cattle to exist domesticated, and they will be bred for meat and milk output, or for muscle and hardiness, not speed.
The camel, meanwhile, exists in areas where a mount will be quite useful, and where running speed can be emphasized in breeding.
In areas where cattle would be bred for running speed, there simply weren't very many cattle. The central asian steppes had sheep, goats and camels.
In most areas, you'll need an agricultural base for cattle to exist domesticated, and they will be bred for meat and milk output, or for muscle and hardiness, not speed.
The camel, meanwhile, exists in areas where a mount will be quite useful, and where running speed can be emphasized in breeding.
true, the camel will spread farther than it did in OTL, but cattle will still be domesticated on a wide scale. You have to go with what's available, and camels aren't in a lot of places: Europe, SE Asia, etc. The prehistoric peoples of these areas will domesticate cattle because it's what they have... camels will have to come to them, and probably will, but do they have any great advantages over cattle? Actually, I suppose it will come down to which species is more adaptable to a wide range of uses. Cattle can be bred for food, milk, and draft uses, but noone has really ever used them for riding, so it's unclear about how suitable they would be for it; centuries of special breeding for it may work fine, or may not. The main use of camels has always been for riding and carrying burdens, so they are pretty much a substitute for horses right away..... although, not sure they'd do so well hitched to a plow.... they'd have to be selectively bred to be shorter and stouter...
Keenir
Banned
Humans took dogs and other domesticates around the world with them...why not take camels too?
(in OTL, they didn't need to, because they had horses)
...or societies don't go down the plowing route.
they will, eventually.... however, this won't happen immediately.... the humans in place in Europe, SE Asia, etc. will domesticate cattle first, before the camel is brought to them... humans domesticated every large animal that was capable of it in prehistoric times, and it took a while before horses, pigs, etc, got around to other lands...
Flocculencio
Donor
Pigs are too smart to make decent fighting animals. You'll run into the same problem you do with elephants- the animal has the brains to stop, think, decide it's not going to follow orders and break. Boar riders wouldn't be able to reliably carry a charge through which makes them useless as cavalry.
How about this: pigs are as smart as dogs – sometimes I think smarter – and there are trained dogs that charge into battle, almost before they’re released from their chains. So you should be able to breed and train at least a few (maybe a hundred or so every couple of years) to fight in the name of the clan.
But I suppose even if you could the percent of trained boars willing to dive into the thick of it would be so small that it really wouldn’t be worth the time and effort when you could far easily just train someone to use a sword. Cool image nonetheless.
But I suppose even if you could the percent of trained boars willing to dive into the thick of it would be so small that it really wouldn’t be worth the time and effort when you could far easily just train someone to use a sword. Cool image nonetheless.
Flocculencio
Donor
yeah- plus you have to factor in the fact that a boar with that temperament would be far more dangerous to it's handler than a dog would be. Boars are really, really dangerous.
Several people have trained cattle to ride, so it's possible. I don't how fast they can be ridden.
Camel cavalry has been tried, but their main impact was in scaring the horses. I recall reading that some North Africans used camels very effectively in one battle. They dismounted and stood amongst the camels. When their opponents (Vandals, i think) attacked, the smell scared the horses leading a considerable amount of confusion, which aided their martial success. In the next their opponents dismounted and started by attacking the camels, which then panicked and trampled most of the Africans.
The only other military use of camels i've heard of is scouting.
Camel cavalry has been tried, but their main impact was in scaring the horses. I recall reading that some North Africans used camels very effectively in one battle. They dismounted and stood amongst the camels. When their opponents (Vandals, i think) attacked, the smell scared the horses leading a considerable amount of confusion, which aided their martial success. In the next their opponents dismounted and started by attacking the camels, which then panicked and trampled most of the Africans.
The only other military use of camels i've heard of is scouting.
But that is because the dogs are social animals adapted to live in packs and defend it even before their own lifes. However, boars simply go their own way, so you can't train them to attack a colective enemy. To have war boars would be as dificult as to have war cats.
What about war hyenas? There are several myths in sub-saharian Africa about hyenas trained by wizards in order to attack people.