"high crimes, and missdemeanors, and Maladministration

What if that term had got into the US Constitution re impeachment?

I assume that Andrew Johnson would be impeached and convicted and probably in 1867.

Any other instances?
 
Andrew Johnson won't even be born in 1808. Butterflies.

Not much changes. After the rise of the two party system, the opposition party would have to get 2/3 of the senate to have to remove the president. The Democrats won't ever vote to remove a democratic president, the Whigs won't remove a Whig President, etc.

They won't ever admit that their party nominated someone for President who caused "maladministration".

Even for instance, Tyler in 1840s. He was essentially partyless. Surely an opportunity for someone to be impeached for maladministration, right?

Would the senate democrats vote to remove Tyler if the Whigs impeach him? No because it benefits them to have him there and veto the Whig measures. Why vote to remove him if it would just cause the Whig Senate President Pro tempore to become President and sign Whig legislation?

Tyler won't get removed for that reason.

The only instance that would change is when the opposite party gained a majority of the House and 2/3 of the senate. And only Andrew Johnson would have been facing that situation.

And I'm not even sure he would be, since Johnson was impeached for firing his own cabinet officers!! That's not maladministration! It's just cover for political disagreements!

Basically, according to David Tenner, or David T, there are several senators who would have voted to innocent had their vote been required, and only voted guilty because of party pressure and that their votes are not needed to acquit him.
 
Failing to protect former slaves and white Unionists could reasonably be called maladministration.

In olt it is kind of hard to argue that Johnson committed 'crimes' but he may have been the single most catastrophic President
 

GeographyDude

Gone Fishin'
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articlei

The Senate shall have the sole power to try all impeachments. When sitting for that purpose, they shall be on oath or affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no person shall be convicted without the concurrence of two thirds of the members present.

Judgment in cases of impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust or profit under the United States: but the party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment and punishment, according to law.
As an American, I think our Constitution has a lot of wisdom and has worked well in many, many situations.

However on this one, requiring a 2/3's majority basically just to fire someone doing a lousy job, I think that brings with it some dangers.

I do like the part, "shall not extend further than to removal from office." I'm less sure about the part of disqualifying the person from any future office of honor, trust, or profit.
 

GeographyDude

Gone Fishin'
In olt it is kind of hard to argue that Johnson committed 'crimes' but he may have been the single most catastrophic President
We're discussed much of this in another thread you may be interested in, although I personally think it's often helpful to have multiple threads on the same or similar topic.

AHC: Make Impeachment Relatively Common in America
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=321976

And my own AHC: Make a couple of medium changes so that Reconstruction works and former slaves and black citizens have largely equal rights, say, by 1910. Things don't have to be perfect, but they do have to be pretty damn good.
 
Andrew Johnson won't even be born in 1808. Butterflies.

That's a hard argument. A few words added to a document like that isn't going to suddenly unravel potential DNA. If, for some reason, those few words caused a riot, or a revolt, or a coup, and so forth, then yes, I'd say those are sufficient butterfly-causing events to snuff a man out of existence 20-odd years hence.

The better argument would be whether the man would ever have become president. Or better yet, ignore the others and let's assume that during the mid-19th century that phrase was added via Amendment. Then your bland, blanket "butterflies" argument falls completely.

I'm sorry, nothing personal, it's just that argument is so wantonly flung on anything and everything without a little open-minded curiosity. This is AH.com, where anything alternative should get more than a single word dismissal.
 
That's a hard argument. A few words added to a document like that isn't going to suddenly unravel potential DNA. If, for some reason, those few words caused a riot, or a revolt, or a coup, and so forth, then yes, I'd say those are sufficient butterfly-causing events to snuff a man out of existence 20-odd years hence.

The better argument would be whether the man would ever have become president. Or better yet, ignore the others and let's assume that during the mid-19th century that phrase was added via Amendment. Then your bland, blanket "butterflies" argument falls completely.

I'm sorry, nothing personal, it's just that argument is so wantonly flung on anything and everything without a little open-minded curiosity. This is AH.com, where anything alternative should get more than a single word dismissal.


Oh I can imagine how it could change things. Let's say that Republicans hurl impeachment charges against John Adams for maladminstration of the Alien Sedition Acts. And Federalists too for Jefferson's acts.

The mere word will change how politicians act, and while successful impeachment would be rare, let's say that Jacob Johnson would read a paper in 1808 calling for the impeachment of Jefferson for maladministration for the Embargo act. That paper would have a different headline in OTL.

It concerns him enough that when he made love to his wife, instead of Y chromosome, it was the X chromosome that reached the egg.

So in December 29, 1808, Andrea Johnson would be born.

Or let's just say, a supporter in North Carolina decided to go to Washington to express his support to Jefferson after hearing reports that some Federalists were attempting to impeach Jefferson for maladminstration because of the Embargo Act. He went to an inn in North Carolina on the way, where his presence caused hostler Jacob Johnson to delay his return to his house to tend to that supporter, whereas in OTL, he didn't. That delay was sufficient to change his lovemaking to his wife that she conceived a daughter. Or even a son, but with a different Y chromosome, leading to an Andrew Johnson with a different personality!

See?

And adding the word maladministration will be extremely difficult, as between 1804 and 1865, no amendment was added. If it was before 1808, then Johnson could be born a girl. If after, then you have to posit a scenario where that single word would be added, which is much harder than say, adding a word in the Constitutional Convention in 1787. The Democrats would see this as an attack of the Whigs to the legacy of the strong president Andrew Jackson, and will oppose it. Before his presidency, no president was worth having the word maladministration to impeach simply because usually, their party also controlled Congress.

Could you imagine a Federalist proposing an amendment to the constitution of the word maladministration in 1808? The Republicans would think of this as an attack on Jefferson, and it won't pass. If it happened during the Adams administration, same thing.

After the debacle of the election of 1800, it took a civil war to add another amendment. Why, because it removed a section that could block said passage of Amendment-the South.

I've already given my answer if the word was added. My answer? Not much, since the main obstacle to a successful impeachment is the 2/3 requirement in the Senate.

If all happens as OTL except the word, I doubt Andrew Johnson would be removed. Why? Ben Wade would become president! He actually didn't recuse himself, but sat in judgement in a trial that could make him president. Which made him unseemly, overly ambitious, and unethical to the other senators.

And a lot of senators believed Johnson guilty in OTL, but voted not guilty so as not to make Wade president. It would be the same. Misdemeanors, maladministration, they won't vote for Ben Wade to become president! It was 1868 anyway, and they knew Johnson would be out of office anyway with the election coming, so why risk the presidency of Ulysses S Grant by giving him a rival in Wade, and why give Wade the Presidency?

Ben Wade is one big obstacle in getting Johnson convicted, whatever the charges are.

It was said during that time that, "Andrew Johnson is innocent because Ben Wade is guilty of being his successor."
 
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That's a really slippery slope, though. Of course small incidents can have large consequences relative to OTL, but MUST they? I'm not talking about a single person getting shot or anything traumatic like that not changing history, but c'mon, a mere addition of a word automatically causing a swapped chromosome? That's really grasping for straws IMO, and is not at all a reasonable expectation that should occur with more certainty than the same person being born in a world that has a differently worded clause in the Constitution. It's not even a distant POD; the further back you go with a minor change, the greater the potential for the ripples to alter events from OTL's perspective. How would adding a word or two seriously alter the outcome of somebody's birth when said person is, at best, tangentially connected to the document in question?

And I seriously can't believe anybody here would believe for a second that one's state of mind, or vigor/technique in lovemaking would have any measurable effect on the gender or personality of the resulting child in this day and age...didn't that crap get debunked ages ago as literal Old Wives' Tales? The point is, while a minor gesture or weird smell or what have you COULD change events to render somebody not being born, there IMO needs to be a certain degree of leeway to be agreed upon when discussing an AHC, and a line regarding the Butterfly Effect drawn somewhere; otherwise, you could argue circles around "who's born" or not, or "who would be in X office or Y" all day, with an obstinate enough poster or two. Using Tonifraz as an example, just going "butterflies" is not an argument but a pseudo-pithy crack without substance (although he did back it up with some ideas, granted). It's one thing to be thoughtfully critical, it's another to nitpick something that might not even matter for the sake of an OP.
 
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That's a really slippery slope, though. Of course small incidents can have large consequences relative to OTL, but MUST they? I'm not talking about a single person getting shot or anything traumatic like that not changing history, but c'mon, a mere addition of a word automatically causing a swapped chromosome? That's really grasping for straws IMO, and is not at all a reasonable expectation that should occur with more certainty than the same person being born in a world that has a differently worded clause in the Constitution. It's not even a distant POD; the further back you go with a minor change, the greater the potential for the ripples to alter events from OTL's perspective. How would adding a word or two seriously alter the outcome of somebody's birth when said person is, at best, tangentially connected to the document in question?

And I seriously can't believe anybody here would believe for a second that one's state of mind, or vigor/technique in lovemaking would have any measurable effect on the gender or personality of the resulting child in this day and age...didn't that crap get debunked ages ago as literal Old Wives' Tales? The point is, while a minor gesture or weird smell or what have you COULD change events to render somebody not being born, there IMO needs to be a certain degree of leeway to be agreed upon when discussing an AHC; otherwise, you could argue circles around "who's born" or not, or "who would be in X office or Y" all day.

A single word in the constitution could have massive effects, since the POD is 20 years before Johnson's birth. For example, there could be attempts to impeach Adams because of the Alien and Sedition Acts, his refusal to go to war to France, with the Republicans claiming them to be "maladministration" which in OTL they would not since those things above are not "high crimes and misdemeanors"..

Similarly, scrapping the US Navy by Jefferson, and the embargo act, could be claimed as "maladministration" by Federalists, and Jefferson would have impeachment attempts against him.

Not that they would succeed of course, but the mere attempt to impeach Adams and Jefferson for maladminstration where in OTL there was no attempt because those were not "high crimes". Those failed attempts would cause significant butterflies.

And Presidents could act differently knowing that they could be impeached with maladministration, instead of just avoiding "high crimes and misdemeanors". That could have significant effects.

On Butterflies...

Basically, it really depends on someone's timeline and what the author wants. Any POD before 1819, and the author could make Victoria a male, or even make her still born, or something like that. He could make the Duke of Wellington die before he becomes PM, like being killed in a duel, or just a generic disease.

Or he could just handwaved everything and say that the same chromosome gets the same egg like that.

It's really fine either way, but the author needs to make it clear.
 
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A single word in the constitution could have massive effects, since the POD is 20 years before Johnson's birth. For example, there could be attempts to impeach Adams because of the Alien and Sedition Acts, his refusal to go to war to France, with the Republicans claiming them to be "maladministration" which in OTL they would not since those things above are not "high crimes and misdemeanors"..

Similarly, scrapping the US Navy by Jefferson, and the embargo act, could be claimed as "maladministration" by Federalists, and Jefferson would have impeachment attempts against him.

Not that they would succeed of course, but the mere attempt to impeach Adams and Jefferson for maladminstration where in OTL there was no attempt because those were not "high crimes". Those failed attempts would cause significant butterflies.

On Butterflies...

Basically, it really depends on someone's timeline and what the author wants. Any POD before 1819, and the author could make Victoria a male, or even make her still born, or something like that. He could make the Duke of Wellington die before he becomes PM, like being killed in a duel, or just a generic disease.

Or he could just handwaved everything and say that the same chromosome gets the same egg like that.

It's really fine either way, but the author needs to make it clear.

I'm not objecting to the addition of a word to the Constitution meaning big consequences in a political/world events sense (i.e. attempted impeachments of certain Presidents through creative use of the word "Maladministration"). I did object to your single-sentence contention that "word change = no Andrew Johnson", which (no offense) comes off as very dismissive and disrespectful to the OP unless you explain your line of thinking in that regard.

As I said though, you did provide clarification on that line of thought (although I still don't subscribe to your examples, but that's just a matter of personal opinion), and I do agree that the author can have a degree of control over that "butterfly threshold", so no big deal on my end. I subscribe to the Butterfly Effect theory on the whole, but it seems that some people want to use that word to shoot down AHCs before they really get started, or as an opener to nitpick a concept to death without even trying to suspend disbelief. To me, that flies in the face of the entire spirit of alternate history. At the same time, though, it helps if the OP elaborates on their idea from the get-go as much as possible.
 
I'm not objecting to the addition of a word to the Constitution meaning big consequences in a political/world events sense (i.e. attempted impeachments of certain Presidents through creative use of the word "Maladministration"). I did object to your single-sentence contention that "word change = no Andrew Johnson", which (no offense) comes off as very dismissive and disrespectful to the OP unless you explain your line of thinking in that regard.

As I said though, you did provide clarification on that line of thought (although I still don't subscribe to your examples, but that's just a matter of personal opinion), and I do agree that the author can have a degree of control over that "butterfly threshold", so no big deal on my end. I subscribe to the Butterfly Effect theory on the whole, but it seems that some people want to use that word to shoot down AHCs before they really get started, or as an opener to nitpick a concept to death without even trying to suspend disbelief. To me, that flies in the face of the entire spirit of alternate history. At the same time, though, it helps if the OP elaborates on their idea from the get-go as much as possible.

I apologize if I come across as dismissive. I didn't believe in butterflies before, and I would simply believe that people would the same no matter what, except where they would be directly affected, but over the years reading alternate history, I was disabused of the notion. For example, any POD before 1888 would cause a different Hitler to emerge, but it could just be the same, etc.

Anyway, I answered the question of the OP after giving my opinion regarding Andrew Johnson if there is that single word and everything goes the same.

Tonifranz said:
If all happens as OTL except the word, I doubt Andrew Johnson would be removed. Why? Ben Wade would become president! He actually didn't recuse himself, but sat in judgement in a trial that could make him president. Which made him unseemly, overly ambitious, and unethical to the other senators.

And a lot of senators believed Johnson guilty in OTL, but voted not guilty so as not to make Wade president. It would be the same. Misdemeanors, maladministration, they won't vote for Ben Wade to become president! It was 1868 anyway, and they knew Johnson would be out of office anyway with the election coming, so why risk the presidency of Ulysses S Grant by giving him a rival in Wade, and why give Wade the Presidency?

Ben Wade is one big obstacle in getting Johnson convicted, whatever the charges are.

It was said during that time that, "Andrew Johnson is innocent because Ben Wade is guilty of being his successor."
 
As an American, I think our Constitution has a lot of wisdom and has worked well in many, many situations.

However on this one, requiring a 2/3's majority basically just to fire someone doing a lousy job, I think that brings with it some dangers..



Would you also want the President to be able to dissolve Congress and call new elections if he thought it was doing a lousy job?

"Lousiness", after all, is often in the eye of the beholder.
 
If a President could actually be removed, you'd eventually have a situation where Congress did it against the will of the people. You'd likely have a coup by that point.

the 2/3rd threshhold is pretty good at preventing that from happening.
 
Would you also want the President to be able to dissolve Congress and call new elections if he thought it was doing a lousy job?

"Lousiness", after all, is often in the eye of the beholder.

Of course not, because the President is one man, and the entire reason for having a legislative body of many people is to ensure that there's multiple perspectives. The two are not comparable.
 

GeographyDude

Gone Fishin'
On the subject of coups, a minority chief executive is potentially vulnerable. I think the situation in Chile in the early 1970s is an example of this. Even with the U.S. CIA trying to topple the government, hiring truck drivers to go out on strike, etc., the government of Salvador Allende was still a minority government.

http://aceproject.org/ace-en/topics/es/ese

" . . By contrast, Salvador Allende’s election in Chile in 1970 on 36 per cent of the vote, and opposed by a right-wing Congress, helped create the conditions for the 1973 military coup. . "

There was some kind of referendum in March 1973. I think Allende won enough votes to continue in office, but not a majority.


And the coup ended up being carried out by the Chilean military September 1973.
 
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