Hellenistic India

[Flocculencio]

Right- let's say that Alexander manages to push beyond the Indus to take first Northern India and then the whole subcontinent. Unfortuntely, he has still failed to father any male children who have lived to see majority. Having reached Cape Comorin, he prepares for a seaborne invasion of Ceylon but is struck down by malaria. His Empire stretching from Greece to the Ganges Delta falls apart and is split among his successors- the squabbling generals.

When the dust settles, the Empire is split into four parts- the Antigonid Empire in Greece, the Selucid Empire in Persia, the Ptolemaic Empire in Egypt and, say, the Heraclid Empire in India.

The Heraklid Empire is ruled from the city of Alexandria Herakles (near OTL Bangalore) and by the 1st C BC had a predominantly Buddhist ruling class (although much of the peasantry still adhered to local variants of Hinduism). Alexandria Herakles is acknowledged as the world centre of Buddhist culture and missionary expeditions are despatched a regular intervals to the various lands around the Empire. Ceylon and a number of South-East Asian states are tributaries of the Empire although it's direct control only runs from the Indus to the Irrawady.

A form of Greek has become the lingua franca of India and much of South-East Asia and even Southern China has a number of Greek speakers in it's trading communities.

I'll do a map for this soon but I thought the idea of a predominantly Hellenistic united India seemed an interesting one.

 

[Forum Lurker]

I don't think you're going to see Buddhism rise. If there's no Ashoka Maurya, there's not going to be official government sponsorship of Buddhism, which is what saved it from disappearing entirely in OTL. Instead, you'll see a syncretism of Hinduism and Hellenistic natural philosophy.

Otherwise, it's a great idea, and will have profound effects on world history.

 

[Flocculencio]

Yes but what if the Heraklian Emperors convert to Buddhism? It just takes one monk in the right place at the right time.

OTL there were a lot of Hellenistic influences on Buddhism and I think it is a reasonably plausible situation. Also I have a fascination with TL's which try to reduce the influence of the Caste system on India

 

[Forum Lurker]

Hellenism does much better at this than Buddhism. Hinduism easily adapted Buddhism to its own structure, absorbing Buddha as the ninth avatar and moving on. Hellenistic natural philosophy is going to hit Hinduism much, much harder, especially on things like the caste system. Add to that the effects of a foreign dynasty which will not only be initially outside of the caste system, but are likely to engage in frequent exogamy to deal with the other Hellenistic kingdoms, and you've just spelled the doom of the caste system entirely.

 

[Faeelin]

Yes but what if the Heraklian Emperors convert to Buddhism? It just takes one monk in the right place at the right time.

OTL there were a lot of Hellenistic influences on Buddhism and I think it is a reasonably plausible situation. Also I have a fascination with TL's which try to reduce the influence of the Caste system on India

Hmm. How about a timeline around the famous Greek King menander, who almost took Pataliputra, the capital of the Hindus Sungas who are probably responsible for ensuring Hinduism wasn't wiped out?

It could make references to teh work, Questions of King Milinda. Although I think some one is working on a TL about that. I forget who, though.

 

[Faeelin]

Hellenism does much better at this than Buddhism. Hinduism easily adapted Buddhism to its own structure, absorbing Buddha as the ninth avatar and moving on. Hellenistic natural philosophy is going to hit Hinduism much, much harder, especially on things like the caste system. Add to that the effects of a foreign dynasty which will not only be initially outside of the caste system, but are likely to engage in frequent exogamy to deal with the other Hellenistic kingdoms, and you've just spelled the doom of the caste system entirely.

The Greeks were considered Ksatrishyas, actually. And remember Plato's republic? That, and some of the Greek attitudes towards their subjects in the Hellenistic Empires, might IMO strongly imply a willingness to tolerate the caste system.

Ashoka, IMO, is overrated; a lot of Buddhism's success in India ties into the support it received in teh growing cities.

 

[Forum Lurker]

I was unaware that an explanation of Greeks as Kshatriya was forwarded; still, that simply furthers evidence of the durability of syncretism. I still suggest that Hellenistic philosophy is a much better way to address the caste system than Buddhism; in OTL, Buddhism was given state sponsorship and still failed utterly to remove caste distinctions. This is in part because Buddhism is a relatively inward-focused philosophy, while Aristotelian methods (very different from Plato, and considerably more popular amongst Alexander's successors) are highly external. A few mildly intolerant Aristotelian kings is all it would take to seriously weaken the caste system, especially as the position of the Heraklid empire would be one in which the lower castes, those with the most to gain by dropping the divisions, are able to capitalize on the benefits of social mobility.

 

[Flocculencio]

OK I see your point- revised version:

Heraklian Empire

Capital: Alexandria Herakles

Ruling dynasty: The Herakloi

Languages: Greek (Lingua Franca), Indian languages by region

Religions: Helleno-Hinduism (melding of Hindu mythology with Greek mythology, official state religion honoured more in the breach than in the observance), folk Hinduism by region, Buddhism (small minority being subsumed into Helleno-Hinduism)

Territory: The Indian subcontinent from the Indus to the Irrawady. The territory between the Indus and the Hindu Kush is contested with the Selucids. Ceylon and much of South-East Asia are vassal states .

By the 1st C BC Alexandria Herakles is a vibrant cultural centre, the home of artists such as the dramatist Mahabalios and the famous sculptor Dasartha Kommenos who built the great statue of Alexander Kalkin, identifying Alexander the Great with Kalkin, the tenth avatar of Vishnu.

 

[Forum Lurker]

I really like the ring of "Dasartha Komnennos". I'd suggest that Alexander be identified as the ninth, rather than the tenth, avatar (replacing Buddha), simply to save a lot of eschatological confusion when philosophers start wondering why, if Kalkin has come and gone, we still appear to be in Kali Yuga.

 

[Flocculencio]

I really like the ring of "Dasartha Komnennos". I'd suggest that Alexander be identified as the ninth, rather than the tenth, avatar (replacing Buddha), simply to save a lot of eschatological confusion when philosophers start wondering why, if Kalkin has come and gone, we still appear to be in Kali Yuga.

Yeah I figured I might throw in a few Hellenised Indians

I like your idea of replacing Buddha with Alexander as an avatar of Vishnu. The civic god of the Heraklid could be Alexander Jayaraj (roughly 'Victorious King'), ninth Avatar of Vishnu. The Statue of Alexander Kalkin, should, of course, now be referred to as Alexander Jayaraj. It is the most astonishing expression of the culture of Heraklid India, a monolithic colossus carved from the side of one of the tall hills overlooking Alexandria Herakles in a realistic representation of Alexander riding Bucephalus.

Culturally, the effect of Hellenic culture makes itself most strongly felt in the cities. Many of the mercantile castes eagerly adopt semi-Hellenistic ways, sending their sons to the academies that are springing up in cities throughout India, founded by Greek scholars or their Indian successors. The native nobility too adopt the ways of their new overlords, anxious not to be dispossessed.

Here's my tentative take on the Heraklid military:
Apart from the occasional rebellion and the constant skirmishes along the disputed border with Selucid Persia, the only major military campaigns are sporadic fleet expeditions to trading ports in the East Indies to show the flag or to support tributary rulers in their petty conflicts. The Heraklid navy is an effective organisation and Heraklid marines are competent and well-trained. Alexander's crushing victories over Indian armies left the impression that Greek military science was far more effective- thus the makeup of Heraklid armies was similar to that of Alexander's with heavy cavalry (now equipped with primitive stirrups*- a simple loop through which the rider placed his big toe) and pikemen forming the bulk of the troops. Although war elephants were an official part of the army, their use was mostly either ceremonial (as Imperial Guard units) or utilitarian and they were seldom committed to battle except when the need for a shock weapon outweighed the risks of using elephants.

*On Indian stirrups: http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/oldwrld/armies/stirrups.html

 

[Forum Lurker]

That naval emphasis could have delightfully far-reaching effects. If nothing else, it will further the cross-cultural pollination with China, already assisted by the Heraclids' proximity.

 

[Faeelin]

That naval emphasis could have delightfully far-reaching effects. If nothing else, it will further the cross-cultural pollination with China, already assisted by the Heraclids' proximity.

I think there's a chance we could do something with the Chinese traveller Zhang Qian, who reached Bactria in the 120s BC OTL. He found Kushans ruling over the Bactrians, and they had no interest in alling against the Xiongu. Would a Bactrian state?

 

[Forum Lurker]

Most likely. The Hellenistic rulers seem like the sorts to get along marvelously with the Chinese. The Seleucids (if it's them, and not the Heraclids, you mean) would like it even more because it'd be a possible ally against the Heraclids.

 

[Tom_B]

The impact of Platonism on Hinduism would produce an earlier Vedanta.

 

[Faeelin]

I was unaware that an explanation of Greeks as Kshatriya was forwarded; still, that simply furthers evidence of the durability of syncretism. I still suggest that Hellenistic philosophy is a much better way to address the caste system than Buddhism; in OTL, Buddhism was given state sponsorship and still failed utterly to remove caste distinctions. This is in part because Buddhism is a relatively inward-focused philosophy, while Aristotelian methods (very different from Plato, and considerably more popular amongst Alexander's successors) are highly external. A few mildly intolerant Aristotelian kings is all it would take to seriously weaken the caste system, especially as the position of the Heraklid empire would be one in which the lower castes, those with the most to gain by dropping the divisions, are able to capitalize on the benefits of social mobility.

Sigh. When will people stop making blanket generalizations about India? This period saw a rapid economic expansion in India, evidenced by increased coinage and donations to Buddhist monasteries, often from the lowest castes.

And as to the idea of a series of Hellenistic monarchs attempting to wipe out the caste system.... let's remember that when Antiochus IV tried that with Judaism, he ended up inspiring the Maccabees.

 

[Forum Lurker]

Sigh. When will people stop making blanket generalizations about India? This period saw a rapid economic expansion in India, evidenced by increased coinage and donations to Buddhist monasteries, often from the lowest castes.

And as to the idea of a series of Hellenistic monarchs attempting to wipe out the caste system.... let's remember that when Antiochus IV tried that with Judaism, he ended up inspiring the Maccabees.

Not the same. Antiochus attempted to prevent any Jewish worship at all. If the Greeks attempted to completely suppress all Hindu worship, desecrating sacred sites and forcing the Indians to worship the Heraclid king as an incarnation of Zeus, the Hindus would naturally rise up in revolt and annihilate their oppressors. If, on the other hand, the only thing the Greeks do to cut into the caste system is to ignore caste distinctions in their employment, and not enforce any laws regarding them (and punish those who engage in vigilantism), that may not be nearly as poorly-received.

And I'll stop making generalizations about India as soon as I find a History of Pre-Colonial India course which fits into my schedule. Until then, I've got to run off of publicly-available summary information like the Wikipedia, or off of the knowledge of people who've studied the subject.

 

[Flocculencio]

It would be interesting to see the Selucids expand further into Central Asia- in TTL, they'd have a very great interest in attempting to take control of the overland trading routes to China since Heraklid India has a stranglehold on the maritime route. At the same time, with tributary kingdoms to worry about in S-E Asia, the seaborne China trade and the Spice trade, I could envision the Heraklids not expanding beyond the Khyber into Central Asia directly but rather playing a BC version of the Great Game with the Selucids. It would be quite cool- danger and derring-do in Central Asia as the agents of the Shahanshah battle it out with those of the Maharaja.

 

[Rick Robinson]

The Greeks were considered Ksatrishyas, actually. And remember Plato's republic? That, and some of the Greek attitudes towards their subjects in the Hellenistic Empires, might IMO strongly imply a willingness to tolerate the caste system.

There are further Greek roots for something suggestive of caste. Remember the Spartan system of spartiates, perioekoi, and helots. It was not peculiar to Sparta; Dorian regions from Thessaly to Crete had something similar. The Spartans exercised a huge fascination on the Greek philosophical mind, no doubt because philosophy developed largely as a critique of the Athenian democracy.

Also, within a generation the Greek ruling class, below the Heraklid royal family itself, is going to become Indo-Hellenic because of the sheer distances involved - they will marry local wives rather than importing them.


The possible naval development raises some interesting questions. Do they bring in enough Greek (or Phoenician, etc.) shipwrights to establish naval shipyards? Native Indian shipbuilding traditions could produce perfectly seaworthy craft, but the hulls were basically lashed together, totally unsuited to the shocks of combat. Ramming ceased to be the primary tactic with the decline of the Athenian navy, but a Hellenistic seafight still involved ships banging into each other.

If the Heraklids are using ships built by local methods, they can still preserve a strategic concept of sea power, but tactical seafighting is likely to disappear, placing a constraint on the exercise of sea power.

-- Rick

 

[Flocculencio]

There are further Greek roots for something suggestive of caste. Remember the Spartan system of spartiates, perioekoi, and helots. It was not peculiar to Sparta; Dorian regions from Thessaly to Crete had something similar. The Spartans exercised a huge fascination on the Greek philosophical mind, no doubt because philosophy developed largely as a critique of the Athenian democracy.

Also, within a generation the Greek ruling class, below the Heraklid royal family itself, is going to become Indo-Hellenic because of the sheer distances involved - they will marry local wives rather than importing them.


The possible naval development raises some interesting questions. Do they bring in enough Greek (or Phoenician, etc.) shipwrights to establish naval shipyards? Native Indian shipbuilding traditions could produce perfectly seaworthy craft, but the hulls were basically lashed together, totally unsuited to the shocks of combat. Ramming ceased to be the primary tactic with the decline of the Athenian navy, but a Hellenistic seafight still involved ships banging into each other.

If the Heraklids are using ships built by local methods, they can still preserve a strategic concept of sea power, but tactical seafighting is likely to disappear, placing a constraint on the exercise of sea power.

-- Rick

RE- the Indo-Hellenics, I think that this is indeed what will happen. You'll have most of the aristocracy and upper class commoners having Greek names and being able to trace descent back to Greece but being indistinguishable from the Indians (except perhaps with a greater incidence of blue or green eyes). Much of the urban mercantile and other "middle" classes probably won't intermarry with the Greeks (except at the highest levels) but may adopt hellenised names (e.g. my aforementioned dramatist Mahabalios).

I was thinking that they might develop a naval doctrine based on the idea of transforming sea battles into land battles. In any case, I doubt that triremes would be at all suited for the Arabian Sea, the Bay of Bengal and the waters of the East Indies (although we might see native style ships with sturdier hulls- hybrid trireme/dhows if you will) so possibly a doctrine of naval combat based around the use of the aforementioned marines would be involved- maybe some bright spark comes up with the idea of the corvus. Since most of the adversaries the Heraklid Navy is likely to be facing will be pirates on the East Indian trade routes a typical Heraklid naval campaign might go something like this: reports of pirates harrying the spice trade through the Straits of Melakaia (Malacca) arrive at the capital. A fleet is despatched- when encountered, pirate ships are boarded and captured or sunk but the main thrust of the campaign lies in landing marine detachments at every pirate village the fleet locates and slaughtering everyone. The pirate chieftains surrender and the Straits are safeguarded for at least another season. The same tactics would tie in nicely to the maintenance of the Heraklid tributary system- if client kings in the Indies face the prospect of war, a fleet could be despatched with marines to render aid. In this view of things, the Heraklid navy is primarily a taxi service for the marine corps rather than an arm of decision in and of itself.

 

[Flocculencio]

The Heraklids and the West- I don't know whether this is at all plausible but I was thinking that possibly the Heraklids would come to view the other Diadochi states in much the same way that China viewed the West in general. Since the Heraklids have little need for imports from the West (except perhaps for wine, and even less of that once vinyards start being cultivated in Kashmir and the Western Ghats, if they can be, that is) and they have a strong monopoly on the spice routes, I think they might not take much of an interest, politically and militarily in the doing of the Diadochi except by keeping an eye on the Selucid influence over Central Asia.

It will be interesting to see what happens if Rome rises on schedule- I sincerely doubt that the Heraklids will take any military action (it's too far away for them to care about) but I'm sure they'll be just as eager to trade with Rome or Carthage as they would be with the Greeks.