Groß-Deutschland map

[General Zod]

If you're referring to my map then I'll explain.
The map is a post ww1 map with Germany, Russia, Italy, Romania, and Serbia all allied to each other.

I suppose the Entente includes the Ottomans then. This would require Turkey suffering substantial territorial losses, then. Italy had plans for Western Anatolia...

Romania OTL wanted Transylvania and got it when the Central Powers carved up Austria-Hungary, and why shouldn't Romania have Dobruja?

Hungary would never accept it, and Germany and Italy would value the wishes and the alliance of Hungarians, nearly half the strength of the old A-H, far far more than the ones of a measely Balkan minor state. Check what happened in the Vienna Arbitrate. As for Dobruja, it was claimed by Bulgaria and Romania both. Its ultimate destination depends on whether Germany, Italy, and CP Russia give more weight to the wishes of Bulgaria or Romania, and which nation claim better credentials with the CPs, as allegiance and war effort go.

I don't see any problem with Serbian gains.

Same issue as for Transylvania. Since Russia is CP, it is reasonable they pull rank and ensure some gains for Serbia, either Bosnia or Macedonia. Not both. Germany, Hungary, and Italy would be especially wary to allow excessive aggrandizement of Serbia since it is the Balkan minor more liekly to cause trouble for them by laying claims to various territories of them. Bulgaria too has a claim on Macedonia and Hungary one on Bosnia from Croatia. Bulgaria is CP or it won't get Thrace. As it concerns Macedonia, it depends on whom among Serbia or Bulgaria can lay better CP allegiance credentials. Hungary would be wary of leaving Bosnia to Serbia and it surely has more weight in the Alliance than Serbia. A possibility might be that Bosnia gets partitioned, and Hungary claims Hercegovina.

Bulgaria was neutral since the war was very short.

Oh, I see, then Serbia getting MAcedonia makes more sense. But then Hungary must get Bosnia.

 

[JJohnson]

I'm going to edit the map above, but could someone give me a summary of what needs to be fixed/who gets what?

From what I can tell:
*Bremen, Lübeck, and Hamburg are city-states; Berlin can be marked, but is not a state on its own, still the federal capital.
*Rijek goes to Germany to give a Mediterranean port. Check Ampersand's map for the internal state divisions.
*Greece is going to have at the very least Constantinople and Cyprus, and possibly to the old Theme of Antioch.
*Italy's border is fine as is for now, but they gain Corsica from France. I don't see much use for Africa becoming part of Italy.
*Check the internal divisions of Germany with Ampersand's map.

That'll take care of most of it.

James

 

[Looseheadprop]

I cant see Baden and Wurtemburg uniting, especially if Prussia is going to divide into so many states. I mean that means there are only 2 south german states, and that can mean only so many votes in the reichsrat compared to 5 billion that would go to former prussia

 

[Falklandia]

From what I can tell:
*Bremen, Lübeck, and Hamburg are city-states; Berlin can be marked, but is not a state on its own, still the federal capital.
*Rijek goes to Germany to give a Mediterranean port. Check Ampersand's map for the internal state divisions.
*Greece is going to have at the very least Constantinople and Cyprus, and possibly to the old Theme of Antioch.
*Italy's border is fine as is for now, but they gain Corsica from France. I don't see much use for Africa becoming part of Italy.
*Check the internal divisions of Germany with Ampersand's map.

That'll take care of most of it.

James

Well, here is it. I'll read the rest of the timeline later, and make my take, as the pro bono mappist

 

[JJohnson]

Hey Ampersand,
The new German port looks good, and you separated out Baden and Würtemberg...good catch The modern state is a creation of the WW2 occupation, which will not occur here, so that's very astute.

Another question - since in this timeline, Poland is here an Axis member, would Germany, the aggrieved party, seek to re-form South Prussia and New East Prussia? I don't want to completely flip Poland off, but then again, it can be shifted east out of Ukraine and Belarus.

Here's a rough timeline of GDL:
1866-1871 - German unification; borders: OTL 1871 Germany, Alsace-Lorraine, Luxembourg, Austria, Bohemia, Moravia, and Rijek port as Ampersand has drawn already. Hungary gets the remainder of the old Austria-Hungary.
1914-1919 - WWI; France annexes Alsace-Lorraine again, and pushes into Rheinprovinz, Belgium, Westphalia, Hesse, Baden, and Würtemberg; Poland takes Posen, Silesia, Moravia, East / West Prussia, Moravia, and parts of Bohemia, and closes on Berlin; By the end of the war, the Germans, with British, Italian, Hungarian, and American help, pushes them back and restores the old borders before WWI. The Treaty of Versailles puts blame on France for the war, and gives causus belli for WW2. The Treaty of Trianon may or may not occur here. Europe is redrawn here, giving Greece Constantinople and portions of Asia Minor; as for the rest of Europe, I'm not sure how it should be redrawn.
1919-1929 - France sinks into depression and massive inflation of the franc. The world mood flirts with various left-wing ideologies, including fascism, under the national socialist banner in France. Germany doesn't have it as bad, and national socialism does not take very much hold. the moderately left country does not experience much in the way of communism or socialism past what it currently has had.
1929-1938 - France falls under the national socialist party, when they seize power in Paris. By 1936, they aid in toppling Spain to the NS, and in Belgium. By 1938, they forcibly annex Alsace-Lorraine, and begin WW2, with Poland also seizing Silesia and Posen.
1938-1945 - WW2 in europe continues, with a massive loss of life. France, having caused a 2nd war and a holocaust, is dealt with harshly, as is Poland. Germany gains the remainder of Alsace-Lorraine as part of fixing a larger buffer, and all French-speakers are forcibly expelled. A more easterly Poland is set up as a permanently neutral state, and South Prussia and New East Prussia are given back to Germany. All Polish speakers are permanently expelled and forced to relinquish their property, and Poland formally renounces all claim to any land currently held by the German Republic. France is broken up into confederated, semi-independent states (Aquitaine, Burgundy, South France, North France, Brittany, and Normandy) based on occupation zones. Greece gets nearly half of Asia Minor, including Antioch, and Cyprus. As for the rest of Europe, I'm not too sure how it would be withdrawn.

It's rough, but it's an outline. Essentially 2 boundaries for Germany - 1871-1938 and post ww2. What do you think?

James

 

[General Zod]

Well, here is it. I'll read the rest of the timeline later, and make my take, as the pro bono mappist

There is still the bloody Trento province issue. It is 100% ITALIAN, dammit. If Greater Germany and Italy are going to be strategic partner buddies, that border has NO sense. You must redraw it and place the border between the OTL provinces of Trento and Bozen.

 

[General Zod]

Another question - since in this timeline, Poland is here an Axis member, would Germany, the aggrieved party, seek to re-form South Prussia and New East Prussia? I don't want to completely flip Poland off, but then again, it can be shifted east out of Ukraine and Belarus.

It may be reasonable. The inverse of what happened OTL.

Here's a rough timeline of GDL:
1866-1871 - German unification; borders: OTL 1871 Germany, Alsace-Lorraine, Luxembourg, Austria, Bohemia, Moravia, and Rijek port as Ampersand has drawn already. Hungary gets the remainder of the old Austria-Hungary.

Yep, this is very fine but can we have the bloody province of Trento in Italian hands, please ? I find ignorance of the HUGE ethnic-linguistic differences between 100% Italian Trento and large-majority-German Bozen-Alto Adige-Sudtirol maddening.

By the way, your opinion on the German unification TL I posted on the other thread ?

1914-1919 - WWI; France annexes Alsace-Lorraine again, and pushes into Rheinprovinz, Belgium, Westphalia, Hesse, Baden, and Würtemberg; Poland takes Posen, Silesia, Moravia, East / West Prussia, Moravia, and parts of Bohemia, and closes on Berlin;

Argh, one wonders how the Germans were able to pull the huge industrial effort to fight a modern total war like WWI, if most of their major industrial areas (Rheinland, Westphalia, Silesia, Bohemia-Moravia) were under enemy occupation or battlegrounds. They still had Vienna, Berlin, and Hannover, sure, but still ?? Did they manage to make some crash-course industry building in Central Germany, and barely hold the front with British and US supplies in the meantime ?

By the end of the war, the Germans, with British, Italian, Hungarian, and American help, pushes them back and restores the old borders before WWI.

Sorry, pal, but this is unrealistic. The UK-US-DE-HU-IT Alliance has just spent FIVE years subduing aggressor France (and Poland, how they did manage to break free from the Czars in the 1800s ITTL ? Something must have temporarily crippled the Russian Empire for that to happen; just curious), and they let it go scot-free, as territorial losses go ? Utterly unrealistic. ITTL, France is the recidivist bully of Europe, having gone at it again and again (Napoleon, 1870, 1914).

I instead propose the following TL:

1871: France loses the war against the German-Italian alliance. They cede Alsace-Lorraine to Germany, Nice, Savoy, and Corsica to Italy. France sulks in widespread revanchist resentment for 40 years, then it's WWI baby.

1919: After five years of losses and sacrifices, the weary but victorious Allied troops march in triumph down the Champs Elysees. The mood among the ruling elites of the Big Five is to cripple the troublemaker French, and they draft the peace treaty accordingly. France loses the rest of Lorraine to Germany, French Flanders to Belgium/Netherlands, the Alpes and the French Riviera up to Toloun to Italy. Not to mention massive military limitations, huge reparations, and loss of the colonial empire which is partitioned between Britain, Germany, and Italy. As for Poland, Germany annexes Lodz and Polish Upper Silesia.


1945; having France (and Poland) gone at the throat of Europe yet again, with huge loss of lives, and caused the Holocaust to boot, the Allies inflict draconian punishment. The German border is expanded to include Franche-Comté, the Italian border is expanded to include Dauphiné and Provence up to the Rhone Valley. Picardy is awarded to Belgium/Netherlands as compensation. French residents from annexed areas are expelled or forced to undergo renationalization. The rest of France is put under military occupation and broken up into confederated, semi-independent, and demilitarized states (dunno about the exact borders but at least four different states each for every occupation zone, say UK Brittany-Normandy, DE North France, IT South France, US Aquitaine) which are gradually granted autonomy. Poland is redrawn as you described, including the expulsions. I think the areas annexed by Nazi Germany in WWII can be used as a rough outline.

The rest of the general timeline you describe seems fine.

The Treaty of Versailles puts blame on France for the war, and gives causus belli for WW2. The Treaty of Trianon may or may not occur here. Europe is redrawn here, giving Greece Constantinople and portions of Asia Minor; as for the rest of Europe, I'm not sure how it should be redrawn.
1919-1929 - France sinks into depression and massive inflation of the franc. The world mood flirts with various left-wing ideologies, including fascism, under the national socialist banner in France. Germany doesn't have it as bad, and national socialism does not take very much hold. the moderately left country does not experience much in the way of communism or socialism past what it currently has had.
1929-1938 - France falls under the national socialist party, when they seize power in Paris. By 1936, they aid in toppling Spain to the NS, and in Belgium. By 1938, they forcibly annex Alsace-Lorraine, and begin WW2, with Poland also seizing Silesia and Posen.
1938-1945 - WW2 in europe continues, with a massive loss of life. France, having caused a 2nd war and a holocaust, is dealt with harshly, as is Poland. Germany gains the remainder of Alsace-Lorraine as part of fixing a larger buffer, and all French-speakers are forcibly expelled. A more easterly Poland is set up as a permanently neutral state, and South Prussia and New East Prussia are given back to Germany. All Polish speakers are permanently expelled and forced to relinquish their property, and Poland formally renounces all claim to any land currently held by the German Republic. France is broken up into confederated, semi-independent states (Aquitaine, Burgundy, South France, North France, Brittany, and Normandy) based on occupation zones. Greece gets nearly half of Asia Minor, including Antioch, and Cyprus. As for the rest of Europe, I'm not too sure how it would be withdrawn.

It's rough, but it's an outline. Essentially 2 boundaries for Germany - 1871-1938 and post ww2. What do you think?

James

It's OK, apart from the fact you need three maps, 1871, 1919, and post-WWII.

 

[Susano]

Well, here is it. I'll read the rest of the timeline later, and make my take, as the pro bono mappist

Ah, thats not bad.
Of course, some issues with it:
1) If Germany has Bohemia, why is the Sudetenland given to neighbouring states? Bohemia is now a 100%... well, >90% Czech state. Wouldnt it make more sense to have the Sudetenland be included there to have a German population percentage in the state?
2) Lübeck has just around 250k inhabitants, and Carinthia, Vorarlberg and Salzburg just around 250k. Considering the Rhineland will have around 15m inhabitants, I dunno if such small states should exist. IMO, Tyrol should absorb Vorarlbegr, S-H should absorb, the two Austries could unite and Salzyburg, Carinthia and probably also Styria and Carniola should be fused. As names could be used the archaic Karantanien (Carantania, Carinthia is derived from that) or the artifical Alpenland (Alpine Lands)... just an idea, though.
3) The border between Rhineland and Westphalia goes right through the Ruhr Area. Thats a bit inefficient maybe... Solutions would be to have the two states united, to have the border redrawn, or to have the Ruhr Agglemeration (or betetr yet, the whole Rhine-Ruhr Metropolitan Area) be an own state...

 

[JJohnson]

There might be a 4th map for 2008, after the fall of communism on 1991. It wouldn't affect Germany, not being divided in half, but perhaps useful.

I'll reply to your timeline in that thread; from what I've read so far, still looks good

I'm thinking Russia pulls out in this timeline like in our timeline, due to the Communist revolution, and sometime after WW2, the Communist atrocities get revealed to the public, disrediting communism, perhaps in the 1980s with Ronald Reagan (since he was a big anti-communist).

As for the expanded French-German border, I was considering the Franche-Comté as part of the occupation zone of Burgundy. Italy should definitely get Nice and Savoy...

James

 

[Falklandia]

Ah, thats not bad.
Of course, some issues with it:
1) If Germany has Bohemia, why is the Sudetenland given to neighbouring states? Bohemia is now a 100%... well, >90% Czech state. Wouldnt it make more sense to have the Sudetenland be included there to have a German population percentage in the state?

I think this would be a move by the Czech majority in Bohemia and Moravia; since the Germans constituted roughly one third of the population of both provinces, I can see them advocating the realocation of the Sudeten lands to their neighbouring provinces, in order to have a voice in their own provinces.

2) Lübeck has just around 250k inhabitants, and Carinthia, Vorarlberg and Salzburg just around 250k. Considering the Rhineland will have around 15m inhabitants, I dunno if such small states should exist. IMO, Tyrol should absorb Vorarlbegr, S-H should absorb, the two Austries could unite and Salzyburg, Carinthia and probably also Styria and Carniola should be fused. As names could be used the archaic Karantanien (Carantania, Carinthia is derived from that) or the artifical Alpenland (Alpine Lands)... just an idea, though.

I can see the Habsburg provinces uniting, but I think Lübeck, as a former Imperial Free City, would cringe to its independence from Schleswig-Holstein.

3) The border between Rhineland and Westphalia goes right through the Ruhr Area. Thats a bit inefficient maybe... Solutions would be to have the two states united, to have the border redrawn, or to have the Ruhr Agglemeration (or betetr yet, the whole Rhine-Ruhr Metropolitan Area) be an own state...

Well, maybe a inter-state/bund economic cooperation area for the Rhine-Ruhr can be achieved, for common policy and taxes. It's not uncommon for metropolitan areas to stretch between two or more states; here in Brazil we have the São Paulo - ABC Paulista - Vale do Paraíba - Rio de Janeiro metropolitan/industrial area; I'm sure agreements could be made.

There is still the bloody Trento province issue. It is 100% ITALIAN, dammit. If Greater Germany and Italy are going to be strategic partner buddies, that border has NO sense. You must redraw it and place the border between the OTL provinces of Trento and Bozen.

Yeah, well, the Italians can't have anything, they will already have the Rhone valley, Provence and Corsica, why bother with Trentino?
(Ok, I forgot... next version I'll put it)

 

[JJohnson]

As for the German states, I think Ampersand has pretty much nailed it there, except putting Bremen back in to go with Hamburg and Lübeck. As for other small states, I'm not sure of any impetus to combine them in this timeline, so leaving the German states as before seems fine, just a tri-part 1871 (East Prussia the same size as OTL, Trentino to Italy), post WW1 (all of Alsace/Lorraine) and post WW2 map (with Posen taking the borders and name South Prussia, and the expanded East Prussia splitting to East and New East Prussia). That should take care of the three states of Germany for this timeline. The partition of Poland shows a good example of where the border likely would be.

Excellent

James

 

[Susano]

Well, smaller states have already been absorbed in his map: Brunswick, Anhalt, Lippe, Schaumburg-Lippe, the small Thuringian states and Hohenzollern. Oh, and Oldenburg, even though that was actually a sufficiently mediumsized state. Thats another complaint I have: Hannover. If its called Han(n)over, it should probably exclude Oldenburg, and if Hannover and Oldenburg (and Brunswick) are combined then the OTL name of Lower Saxony would probably be chosen. But if those three states are combined, Bremen would probably be folded into it, too. The only reason it wasnt IOTL was becauzse Bremen was an exclave of the American occupation zone, so that the Americans would have an harbour.

 

[JJohnson]

I looked at Braunschweig and Oldenberg - it does look like those should likely be removed from Hanover and Hanover preserved as a state name.

The only issue with re-establishing the first, is it was a non-contiguous state. Keeping everything contiguous, would we accept this map, or recreate from this map? For Oldenberg, I'd likely keep the largest portion of the state, carved from Hanover.

Whenever Ampersand gets a moment It'd be great to see our Gross-Deutschland over our new Europe...

James

 

[Susano]

The Administrative District of Brusnwick just took the city its administration resides in, as with most Administrative Districts (level between state and county in some German states). It has nothing to do with the Duchy. I do think Brunswick at least should be almalgated into Hannover, just as Anhalt is into Saxony-Anhalt. No sense in having a clutter of exclaves there, and besides both Hannover and Brusnwick were Welf realms, so theres a historical link.

Oldenburg is a more coherent state with own history, of course, but then theres the issue of Osnabrück+Emsland+East Frisia south and west of it... a very weird Hannoverian annex, not an exclave, but nearly so. Uniting Oldenburg and Hannover(-Brunswick) results in a country with much coherent shape...

 

[JJohnson]

Interesting...I'm not sure the issue with "Osnabrück+Emsland+East Frisia" but let's check out where the map stands....

James

 

[Looseheadprop]

Its seems the p.o.d here is an early unification of germany with the prussians later agreeing to a partition. i think in this case borders should be kept as close to the old lander borders as possible. Perhaps a union of hanseatic territories, i know that this would be small (but economically powerful) but it seems the principle of the federation(?) is to give historically diverse areas representation and self government.

I would argue for more states than less. there are nearly 11 former prussian lander, this would be perceived (if not actual) a quite powerful voting bloc by the other lander who would be likely to frightened of continued prussian domination. So really i would expect the states of german austria to remain as they were historically if only to serve as a counterweight to the immense former prussian bloc, which would be economically and demographically dominant but also different in culture, language and religion to the southern states

 

[JJohnson]

If Ampersand has time to make that small edit to Tyrol, and perhaps make South Prussia and New East Prussia, I'd love to see how our new Gross-Deutschland looks within Europe...

James

 

[Falklandia]

I'm making the maps for Europe in 1875, 1919 and 1945, but it's exams time and they're consuming my time When I finish them, I can post them here and in the Map Thread.

 

[JJohnson]

Hey Ampersand,
Exams first man I've been exactly where you are, so I know how important it is. Best of luck!

James

 

[Falklandia]

I couldn't control myself
Made the map only for Germany and Italy, but they give the picture well. Hope you like it