Groß-Deutschland map

Very true, although I fully expect that by the same bargain, linguistically-Italian Trento (although not necessarily linguistically-German South Tyrol) must necessarily go to Italy. In the maps above, Trento is German, which is very weird. Italy would never accept it. Please revise the map and place the Italian-German border at least where OTL border between the Provinces of Trentino and Alto Adige/Sudtirol lies.

Tirol-Suedtirol-Trentino.png

It would make sense for the Trento to be given to Italy to ensure good relations.

Map's looking good. :D
 
How is this for a Groß-Deutschland map? Does it cover all German speaking areas (Minus Swiss.)? And how is the German-Italian border on this?


Russo-German alliance.png
 
How is this for a Groß-Deutschland map? Does it cover all German speaking areas (Minus Swiss.)? And how is the German-Italian border on this?
All? Good heavens, no! There are German-speakers spread in enclaves across half of Europe!
Well, were until WW2, at least...
But it would be hard to get a better border without beginning to have silly amounts of non-Germans within it, or, as said, exclaves.
 
Yeah, especially Bohemia and Moravia is an obvious problem. What eludes me also why Austrian Silesia isn't incorporated into Prussia on that map.
 
Yeah, especially Bohemia and Moravia is an obvious problem. What eludes me also why Austrian Silesia isn't incorporated into Prussia on that map.
Well it's suppose to be a victory map of of a WW1 with Germany, Russia, Italy, and Romania as part of the Central Powers.
 
OK, her are my comments:
The internal division of Germany in the Map:
1. get rid of the city states
-Bremen (together with Bremerhaven) was set up in 1945, so that the US
Occupation zone would include a harbor
-Berlin as an own State is also a result of WW2, the size of the city today is basicly from 1920.
If you want a Governmental district, like DC, it should be a lot smaler, otherwise it should be part of Brandenburg.
- You can leave Hamburg it was a free city in the German Empire, though smaler.
2. Why isn't there a German mediteranian port?
It is hard to believe, that a German Empire like that wouldn't take Rijeka.
And for the big map:
How did we get a Yugoslavia that size? (Why doesn't Habsburg Hungary hold on to Croatia? )

The timeline:
You didn't really tell us why Prussia doesn't exist any more.
Does nobility still exist? Are some, most, all states ruled by nobels?
Or, and it would explain a lot, is nobility reduced to the Family of the Kaiser.
 
In regard for city states, I'd vote for keeping them! In fact, add another one, namely Lübeck. Lübeck isn't a city state anymore today simply due to the Nazis! :mad:
 

General Zod

Banned
Yeah, especially Bohemia and Moravia is an obvious problem. What eludes me also why Austrian Silesia isn't incorporated into Prussia on that map.

I agree about Austrian Silesia, but the Czech are not a problem, really. The German Empire is infinitely more able to keep them into line than the doddering Hapsburg construction. "Congrats, now you are a proud member of the new and improved Holy Roman Empire, as in days of yore, only now it's a real, functional state. Polish your German and be a productive, loyal citizen and you too can have a fair share in the most prosperous and powerful nation of Europe. A glorious destiny beckons for us all. It's where you were meant to belong all the time since Charlemagne, anyway. Just don't get any uppity, foolish ideas like the world really needs one such pathetic thing as a Czech state or you will learn how efficient and ruthless German police and army can really be". Barring total defeat of Grossdeutchsland in a general European war, they will stay into line, like Posen Poles, and Germanization of both may eventually occur to some extent if Grossdeutchsland most likely wins the World Wars and they stay in the German Empire up to 2008.

The Italo-German border is fine, but I really have to protest, what the heck Romania is doing with Transylvania and Dobruja and Yugoslavia (???) with Croatia, Macedonia, and Bosnia ?? This is unfeasible. When the Hapsburg Empire breaks down and is partitioned, Bismarck would surely ensure that German ally Greater Hungary gets Slovakia, Transylvania, and Croatia. And they most likely get Bosnia later, as well.

Also, since judging from the Franco-Belgian-German border this looks like a post-WWI map, then Italy ought to have Tunisia as well. Italy most likely gets Montenegro (it had a vague dynastic claim on it) and Bulgaria gets Macedonia and Dobruja from Romania. France ought to have lost French Flanders to Belgium and Belgium Flanders to Netherlands. Also, the Russian border is all wrong, they ought to have lost Finland (likely with Karelia), the Baltic states, Belarus, Congress-Austrian Poland, and Galicia-Bessarabia-Ukraine, which ought to be CP puppets by now. Romania ought to get Bessarabia and Odessa if they eventually went CP.

Alternatively, this is a pre-WWI, post-Balkan Wars map, then the Russian border is fine, but Greater Hungary still has to own Transylvania, Croatia, and Bosnia. Albania to Italy is quite reasonable, Montenegro ought to be either an independent Italian puppet or annexed to Italy. If Bulgaria has annexed Eastern Thrace, then it has won the Balkan Wars with CP support (expect WWI to erupt within weeks or months when Serbia cries aid to Russia). Therefore it ought to have Macedonia and Dobruja and Serbia to be contained to Serbia proper and Kosova. Likewise Romania ought to be limited to Moldavia and Wallachia. As it concerns the Western border, it is feasible as the result of France losing the 1870 war to the Italo-German alliance (born ironclad when they partitioned the Hapsburg Empire) and getting an even harsher peace: they lost the whole of Lorraine as well as Alsace to Germany (substantial French minority but the Germans as quite able to keep them into line, like Czech and Posen Poles) and Savoy, Nice, and Corsica to Italy. Luxemburg was likely annexed by Germany after the war (possibly it was the casus belli, when France tried to annex it, instead of the Spanish succession). France has surely spent the last 40 years foaming at the mouth at the thought of Germany and Italy. The Belgian border has no sense as the result of the 1870 war (Belgium was neutral in the Franco-German war, nor would have Bismarck messed with it, at the sure risk of drawing Britain in the conflict). Therefore, Germany ought not have Eastern Wallonia. However, that border may make sense if the Great Powers agreed to partition Belgium instead of setting it up as a neutral buffer state in 1831: therefore Netherlands got Flanders, France got Western Wallonia and Prussia Eastern Wallonia. The restoration of Belgium may be another provision of the Treaty of Frankfurt, but in that case Belgium ought ot get French Flanders as well to make it more viable.

France is getting a truly harsh peace here, probably it was even more stubborn to concede defeat than OTL (maybe Napoleon III was not captured at Sedan, which delays the Republican Revolution and the Commune) and the Italo-Germans had to fight their way through most of France to subdue it; revanchism must have been overwhelming, possibly France went to a rigthtist authoritarian regime sometime in the 70s or 80s; it must have been itching for a war, but too weak until Russia committed to an alliance and declared war about the Balkan mess. It is a little strange that such a weak, isolated France still managed to beat Italy to Tunisia and Germany to Morocco, but maybe Britain pulled weight here and supported French claims as a counterbalance to the Italo-German-Hungarian alliance, and/or the Franco-Russian alliance was already in force and the Triple Alliance chose to back down.
 
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In regard for city states, I'd vote for keeping them! In fact, add another one, namely Lübeck. Lübeck isn't a city state anymore today simply due to the Nazis! :mad:

Well, you can keep Hamburg and have Lübeck, and if you want Frankfurt too, but Berlin just doesn't fit.
I am not that sure about Bremen, but with Oldenburg gone, it shouldn't exist either.
 
"Congrats, now you are a proud member of the new and improved Holy Roman Empire, as in days of yore, only now it's a real, functional state. Polish your German and be a productive, loyal citizen and you too can have a fair share in the most prosperous and powerful nation of Europe. A glorious destiny beckons for us all. It's where you were meant to belong all the time since Charlemagne, anyway. Just don't get any uppity, foolish ideas like the world really needs one such pathetic thing as the Czech language or you will learn how efficient and ruthless German police and army can really be".
I disagree, and it is quite likely that the Germans would have done, too.
They *would* have put more emphasis on German, yes, but they would not have tried something as foolish, unrest and revolution-causing as forbidding Czech if they had a modicum of sense- and that I expect them to have.
Assimilation is likely to occur in any case, and you don't need to have them German-speaking to claim them as fully yours, them being in the day an integral part of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation regardless of the tongue of the people.
So: teaching German, yes, but, to use a double negative, not not teaching Czech. They can be both loyal Germans and Czechs!
 
Well, you can keep Hamburg and have Lübeck, and if you want Frankfurt too, but Berlin just doesn't fit.
I am not that sure about Bremen, but with Oldenburg gone, it shouldn't exist either.

Well, I plainly agree, Hamburg and Lübeck are good (Bremen quite possibly too, but not necessarily), but the Greater Berlin Act (which made Berlin a separate province of Prussia during the Weimar era) shouldn't have happened. :D

In regard for Oldenburg, I don't recall it ever being a city state... :confused:
 

General Zod

Banned
Well it's suppose to be a victory map of of a WW1 with Germany, Russia, Italy, and Romania as part of the Central Powers.

D'oh. I haven't thought of the Russian CP possibility, if anything else because it makes WWI so unlikely (France would be crushed like toothpicks within months, even with all the help of the British Empire). In such a case the Eastern border makes more sense but again Romania has no business having Transylvania and Greater Serbia (?) having Croatia. Both belong to Greater Hungary. Bosnia makes more sense to Serbia in order to appease the Russians. Macedonia is a toss-up, it depends whether the Russians favor the Serbia or Bulgaria more here. But if Serbia gets Bosnia, I would see Macedonia more liekly to go to Bulgaria, Hungary and Italy would not want to see Serbia too aggrandized. Besides boosting Serbia and Bulgaria, where's the beef for CP Russia in this map ? It ought to gain compensations from either Turkey (if it isn't CP) or Persia. Unless their compensation ITTL are off the map, in Central Asia and/or the Far East (Afghanistan, Manchuria).
 

JJohnson

Banned
Saladin,

That's nearly perfect for GDL! The German-Italian is fine to me; I think they should get a Mediterranean port, but was discussing it with General Zod a while back, and he was thinking they'd get port rights, so they wouldn't need actual land. I'll look at it again. Anyone else want to weigh in on this?

The France side should stop at Alsace-Lorraine, but also include Luxembourg. Also, check on Ampersand's map for East Prussia's border.

Good work :)

James

How is this for a Groß-Deutschland map? Does it cover all German speaking areas (Minus Swiss.)? And how is the German-Italian border on this?
 
The Italo-German border is fine, but I really have to protest, what the heck Romania is doing with Transylvania and Dobruja and Yugoslavia (???) with Croatia, Macedonia, and Bosnia ?? This is unfeasible. When the Hapsburg Empire breaks down and is partitioned, Bismarck would surely ensure that German ally Greater Hungary gets Slovakia, Transylvania, and Croatia. And they most likely get Bosnia later, as well.

Also, since judging from the Franco-Belgian-German border this looks like a post-WWI map, then Italy ought to have Tunisia as well. Italy most likely gets Montenegro (it had a vague dynastic claim on it) and Bulgaria gets Macedonia and Dobruja from Romania. France ought to have lost French Flanders to Belgium and Belgium Flanders to Netherlands. Also, the Russian border is all wrong, they ought to have lost Finland (likely with Karelia), the Baltic states, Belarus, Congress-Austrian Poland, and Galicia-Bessarabia-Ukraine, which ought to be CP puppets by now. Romania ought to get Bessarabia and Odessa if they eventually went CP.

Alternatively, this is a pre-WWI, post-Balkan Wars map, then the Russian border is fine, but Greater Hungary still has to own Transylvania, Croatia, and Bosnia. Albania to Italy is quite reasonable, Montenegro ought to be either an independent Italian puppet or annexed to Italy. If Bulgaria has annexed Eastern Thrace, then it has won the Balkan Wars with CP support (expect WWI to erupt within weeks or months when Serbia cries aid to Russia). Therefore it ought to have Macedonia and Dobruja and Serbia to be contained to Serbia proper and Kosova. Likewise Romania ought to be limited to Moldavia and Wallachia. As it concerns the Western border, it is feasible as the result of France losing the 1870 war to the Italo-German alliance (born ironclad when they partitioned the Hapsburg Empire) and getting an even harsher peace: they lost the whole of Lorraine as well as Alsace to Germany (substantial French minority but the Germans as quite able to keep them into line, like Czech and Posen Poles) and Savoy, Nice, and Corsica to Italy. Luxemburg was likely annexed by Germany after the war (possibly it was the casus belli, when France tried to annex it, instead of the Spanish succession). France has surely spent the last 40 years foaming at the mouth at the thought of Germany and Italy. The Belgian border has no sense as the result of the 1870 war (Belgium was neutral in the Franco-German war, nor would have Bismarck messed with it, at the sure risk of drawing Britain in the conflict). Therefore, Germany ought not have Eastern Wallonia. However, that border may make sense if the Great Powers agreed to partition Belgium instead of setting it up as a neutral buffer state in 1831: therefore Netherlands got Flanders, France got Western Wallonia and Prussia Eastern Wallonia. The restoration of Belgium may be another provision of the Treaty of Frankfurt, but in that case Belgium ought ot get French Flanders as well to make it more viable.

France is getting a truly harsh peace here, probably it was even more stubborn to concede defeat than OTL (maybe Napoleon III was not captured at Sedan, which delays the Republican Revolution and the Commune) and the Italo-Germans had to fight their way through most of France to subdue it; revanchism must have been overwhelming, possibly France went to a rigthtist authoritarian regime sometime in the 70s or 80s; it must have been itching for a war, but too weak until Russia committed to an alliance and declared war about the Balkan mess. It is a little strange that such a weak, isolated France still managed to beat Italy to Tunisia and Germany to Morocco, but maybe Britain pulled weight here and supported French claims as a counterbalance to the Italo-German-Hungarian alliance, and/or the Franco-Russian alliance was already in force and the Triple Alliance chose to back down.
If you're referring to my map then I'll explain.
The map is a post ww1 map with Germany, Russia, Italy, Romania, and Serbia all allied to each other.

Romania OTL wanted Transylvania and got it when the Central Powers carved up Austria-Hungary, and why shouldn't Romania have Dobruja?

Germany Annexed the Austrian and
Czech part of Austria-Hungary and the map is based around 1914 victory against France and I based the map around official documents for a German victory against France and Belgium around that year.

I don't see any problem with Serbian gains.

The whole Tunisia thing going to Italy I can understand.

Russia is one of the Victors so it shouldn't lose any territory.

Bulgaria was neutral since the war was very short.
 

General Zod

Banned
I disagree, and it is quite likely that the Germans would have done, too.
They *would* have put more emphasis on German, yes, but they would not have tried something as foolish, unrest and revolution-causing as forbidding Czech if they had a modicum of sense- and that I expect them to have.
Assimilation is likely to occur in any case, and you don't need to have them German-speaking to claim them as fully yours, them being in the day an integral part of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation regardless of the tongue of the people.
So: teaching German, yes, but, to use a double negative, not not teaching Czech. They can be both loyal Germans and Czechs!

Oh, I fully agree with you here. My IC bit was misleading. I do not mean that they would forbid the teaching of the Czech language, but they would make the teaching of German mandatory and leave Czech to wither on its own, as it were. What they would do is to forbid and ruthlessly repress any purposeful use of Czech language and culture for nationalistic purposes.
 
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JJohnson

Banned
OK, her are my comments:
The internal division of Germany in the Map:
1. get rid of the city states
-Bremen (together with Bremerhaven) was set up in 1945, so that the US
Occupation zone would include a harbor
-Berlin as an own State is also a result of WW2, the size of the city today is basicly from 1920.
If you want a Governmental district, like DC, it should be a lot smaler, otherwise it should be part of Brandenburg.
- You can leave Hamburg it was a free city in the German Empire, though smaller.
2. Why isn't there a German mediteranian port?
It is hard to believe, that a German Empire like that wouldn't take Rijeka.
And for the big map:
How did we get a Yugoslavia that size? (Why doesn't Habsburg Hungary hold on to Croatia? )

The timeline:
You didn't really tell us why Prussia doesn't exist any more.
Does nobility still exist? Are some, most, all states ruled by nobels?
Or, and it would explain a lot, is nobility reduced to the Family of the Kaiser.

Hi oberdada,
Welcome to the thread!

1. Bremen, Lübeck, and Hamburg were Hansestädte, so if anything I'd think they should keep special status and be city states.
-as for Berlin, there was a Greater Berlin Act, but that seemed to make it a larger city within Brandenburg, without making it a state on its own. So, how does everyone feel about de-state-ing Berlin? Perhaps merely marking it on its own? Or would it become a state anyway owing to its status as the federal capital?
2. I'm for a Mediterranean Port; I had discussed with General Zod about this, and he knows more about the Italian-German workings there; I would be all for Austrian territory to maintain a small Mediterranean port, if not taking about half of the Trieste/Istrian peninsula for that purpose.
3. Rijeka....hmm....that actually might make perfect sense as a German port! Awesome! Zod, what do you think? Just take the province right of the peninsula for Germany.

As for the rest of Europe, the big map seems to be a Central Powers map, so it might need adjustment for 2008 in the new timeline. France might/would be a confederation of Burgundy, Aquitaine, Brittany, Normandy, and North and South France due to their starting 2 world wars; Poland would be a distinct state, but a bit smaller than OTL; Greece would occupy Constantinople, Cyprus, and a large portion of Asia Minor. I'm not too sure about the rest of Europe, but Greece should have Galatia, and Antioch. (Perhaps a separate, sister thread to this one on that).

For the large map, maybe this map could help with drawing borders, and for 2008, maybe this map.

Essentially, after German unification in 1871, they ally with the UK, HU, IT, and US in this timeline, not Russia and eastern Europe. This essentially places them on the Allies' side for WWI and WWII. France, the Ottomans, and I hope somehow Poland get on the "Central" Powers side for WWI, giving them a causus belli for WWII. I don't know how this will redraw any maps of Europe, but one side effect would be, as before, a larger Greece.

A new question - given France starting 2 world wars, would Germany demand that expanded German-French border as shown above?

James
 
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General Zod

Banned
Saladin,

That's nearly perfect for GDL! The German-Italian is fine to me; I think they should get a Mediterranean port, but was discussing it with General Zod a while back, and he was thinking they'd get port rights, so they wouldn't need actual land. I'll look at it again. Anyone else want to weigh in on this?

Also take into account that Germany surely got port rights (military as well as commercial) from Italy about Trieste and from Hungary about Rieka when the partition treaties were signed. Surely Germany can easily pull rank to obtain full customs extemption and the right to station as many military ships as she fancies to station in the Mediterranean from her junior allies. Giving Trieste and Istria-Dalmatia to Italy ensures that the latter shall not have any lingering claims against the German Empire whatsoever and it ensures their full loyalty to the Triple Alliance for the ages (most likely the strategic partnership grows to resemble the OTL Anglo-American one). Similar considerations can be done for Hungary and Riejka about denying Hungary one good port since Italy is claiming Trieste and Dalmatia. However, if Hungary can retain a good port on the Adriatic besides Trieste and Rieka, then it is not such a great deal and Germany can safely claim Rijeka. The point here is that Germany ought not to antagonize Italy by denying full satisfaction of her claims nor Hungary by leaving it without a good port on the Adriatic. I truly dunno if the border would allow Hungary another good port if Rijeka goes to Germany, so I welcome suggestions here. With Italy and Hungary in their pocket, Grossdeutchsland is all but ensured victory in any future general european conflict, barring catastrophically bad generalship on the Triple Alliance's side. The strategic benefits of being generous to one's allies overwhelmingly surpass the ones of putting the German banner over one port in the Mediterranean. With the Italian alliance, the German Navy and merchant shipping can have all the good ports in the Mediterranean it can ever need or fancy. Since Bismarck was anything but a fool, his choice is obvious.
 
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I'm going to edit the map above, but could someone give me a summary of what needs to be fixed/who gets what?
 

General Zod

Banned
Hi oberdada,
Welcome to the thread!

Ditto. :D

2. I'm for a Mediterranean Port; I had discussed with General Zod about this, and he knows more about the Italian-German workings there; I would be all for Austrian territory to maintain a small Mediterranean port, if not taking about half of the Trieste/Istrian peninsula for that purpose.
3. Rijeka....hmm....that actually might make perfect sense as a German port! Awesome! Zod, what do you think? Just take the province right of the peninsula for Germany.

See my point above, it all hangs on whether Hungary can have one good port besides Trieste and Rijeka. If she does, then Germany can safely claim Rijeka. If not, then Germany ought to pull one for the team and relinquish Rijeka to Hungary, the benefits of having a strong strategic partnership with Italy and Hungary far outweigh the ones of one measely Mediterranean port. Favourable commericial and military access treaties can easily give Germany all the Mediterranean ports she can ever need.

A new question - given France starting 2 world wars, would Germany demand that expanded German-French border as shown above?

Absolutely yes. Heck, they ought to ask that border after WWI when aggressive France threatens Germany and Italy for the third time in a century (Napoleon, 1870, and 1914). Germany claims the rest of Lorraine and it is far from unreasonable for Italy to claim another slice of metropolitan France as well as colonies (the rest of the Maritime Alps to close the gap between Savoy and Nice and control the mountain range, and/or the French Riviera, valuable thanks to tourism) since the PoD ensures they fight the 1870 war together with Germany and gain Nice, Savoy, and Corsica then. It is when recidivist revanchist France attacks yet again in WWII that the Allies start making serious plans about the breakup of France...
 
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