Germany United by Austria

Overlord

My apologies if this is a topic which has been discussed before, I've had a quick search through the sub-forum and I can't appear to find it if it has. My question is this;

With a POD of 1800 (preferably later but I'm not sure if it is possible), is there a way of creating a Germany in which Austria has appeared in the role of Prussia and Prussia is in the role of Austria.

Essentially a scenario in which the Austrians have had to abandon the Hungarian elements of their empire and instead have became the unifying force in Germany. Basically looking for a scenario in which Austria (or rather a German state united by Austria) controls what would later be West Germany in the Cold War and Bohemia, bonus points if you can find a way for the Alsace to be Austro-German as well...

If this state could be created, where would it be most likely to have its capital? What would the Catholic/Protestant Ratio create politically? Would it be authoritarian like the turn of the century German Empire OTL or would it be more constitutional like Austria in OTL?

I'm eager for any responses to this and apologies again if this is a topic which has already been discussed.
 
SavoyTruffle

SavoyTruffle

1848's your best bet, and even then your challenge is to prevent Metternich from controlling Austrian policy regarding Germany.
 

Reichenfaust

Hmmm, possible with a far more reaching victory in the Napoleonic wars, and with them crushing the French could see them eventually assume formation of Germany...

The only problem with this is you would need some sort of close co-operation with Prussia, preferably a union of the two families, that would spur this union on...

It think that the with a Prussian alliance with the Austrians, and crushing of the Napoleonic armies would see a subsequent unification of Germany forced by the Austro-Prussian alliance, and you could get Russia on board with parts of Poland surrendered to them.
 

MSZ

Banned
A most safe PoD would by somehow terminating the rise of Prussia as a competitor to Austri for domination in Germany. This would have to happen post-1515 so as to secure Austria's hold of Hungary and Czechia an before 1866 obviously. Poland annexing East Prussia, Ferdinand III centralising the HRE, Austria winning the Silesian wars or getting the Rheinland after the napoleonic wars would all be a very good start.
 

Overlord

Cool. Thanks everyone, they're all looking interesting. I suppose the challenge is more to make Prussia still exist, but not be a challenger for the title of leader of Germany or not integrate...
 

Detlef

Overlord said:
Cool. Thanks everyone, they're all looking interesting. I suppose the challenge is more to make Prussia still exist, but not be a challenger for the title of leader of Germany or not integrate...
Click to expand...

Well, at the Congress of Vienna somehow give the Rhineland not to Prussia - as in our TL - but to Austria?

In our TL Napoleon pretty much lost most of his respect for Prussia when his armies defeated Prussia that easily. With some Prussian fortresses surrendering almost without resistance. After that war Prussia lost almost half of its territories. And was basically a state east of the river Elbe.

2 possibilities:
- Napoleon demands even more Prussian territories. So Prussia in 1813 is too weak to play any major role in the defeat of Napoleon. So less new territories given at the Congress in Vienna. (Might be problematic because in 1806 Prussia was allied with Russia. Although Russia grabbed some Prussian Polish territory the Czar might have objected - question of honor - to even more Prussian losses. But it´s certainly not unthinkable.)
- No Convention of Tauroggen in December 1812. The Prussian King hesitates longer than in our TL to change sides. Gets less territories as a result.

In our TL connecting the Prussian Rhineland with Brandenburg was a major goal of Prussian politics. Without the Rhineland Prussia might be thinking more of territories across the border so to speak.
In the meantime the Industrial revolution starts and Austria suddenly finds itself in possession of the Ruhr region. :D

In the 1860s Prussia starts a war against Saxony?
The "German Bund" led by Austria mobilizes and defeats Prussia. Leading to a new Habsburg led German Empire (with or without Prussia).
Or alternatively use the Danish-German problems over Schleswig-Holstein. Practically our TL. Only with Austria as the unquestioned leader given the smaller Prussia.

Napoleon III later objects and starts a war against the new German Empire. Loses and France loses Alsace-Lorraine.
 

pompejus

I personally think that th biggest problem for Austria uniting Germany are the large non-German parts of Austria. Bohemia might not be a problem, as it was considered German, or at least closely connected to German history, but Hungary is a big and important non-German part. If you want Austria to unite Germany, you must make the German parts larger and the non-German parts smaller. Maybe make Bavaria Austrian, don't let Austria gain a large part of Italy and let them lose Hungary. Maybe that could do the trick.
 
SavoyTruffle

SavoyTruffle

pompejus said:
I personally think that th biggest problem for Austria uniting Germany are the large non-German parts of Austria. Bohemia might not be a problem, as it was considered German, or at least closely connected to German history, but Hungary is a big and important non-German part. If you want Austria to unite Germany, you must make the German parts larger and the non-German parts smaller. Maybe make Bavaria Austrian, don't let Austria gain a large part of Italy and let them lose Hungary. Maybe that could do the trick.
Click to expand...

Austrian Bavaria is easy - suppose Joseph II's plans for swapping the Austrian Netherlands for Bavaria work.

Losing Hungary is possible if 1848 goes badly and Russia doesn't get called in - perhaps have Russian problems worse.

Italy... I think the reason Austria got Venetia was because Lombardy was already Austrian since the 16th century, and the former lands of the Serenissima were useful for connecting Lombardy to Austria proper.
 

Monty Burns

I think several points mentioned above are necessary.

After 1800, a unification of all of Germany would unite two great powers in the centre of Europe - that ensures foreign intervention as long as the other powers are not busy themselves (1848 is an example). Destroying Prussia earlier (7 years war?) leaves only one major power as the natural leader, which can easily implement gradual steps toward unification (Zollverein, common currency, common army...) early on. I think in this situation Austrian-led unification is much more likely.

Now the other problem are the minorities in the Hapsburg lands. Hungary IMHO is a lesser problem, the easy solution would be to partition the Austrian lands: the mainline becomes German emperor and holds Austria, Slovenia and Bohemia, the new line becomes kings of Hungary. More interesting are Italian holdings, Galicia and the Austrian Netherlands - if they still exist.

Newly united Germany should avoid irredentist problems and a dominant position in Italy, thus IMHO it would be best if Austria is out of Italy as much as possible. Galicia could go either to new Hungary or stay with Germany (for a while until an independent Poland is established as a new client state) - or it may go to Russia buying their consent to German unification. If Austria still holds their Netherlands, they'll have to go. Britain will not accept unified Germany to hold the Rhine and Schelde mouths or Antwerp. Independence is an option, or buying consent to unification from France (bad option).
 

MSZ

Banned
pompejus said:
I personally think that th biggest problem for Austria uniting Germany are the large non-German parts of Austria. Bohemia might not be a problem, as it was considered German, or at least closely connected to German history, but Hungary is a big and important non-German part. If you want Austria to unite Germany, you must make the German parts larger and the non-German parts smaller. Maybe make Bavaria Austrian, don't let Austria gain a large part of Italy and let them lose Hungary. Maybe that could do the trick.
Click to expand...

Or prevent the First Congress of Vienna - this way Prussia, Bohemia and Hungary remain in Polish/Jagiellonian hands and Austria still leads the HRE.
 

M79

-Maria Theresa divides Bavaria with Charles Theodore in the War of Bavarian Succession in exchange for territories in the Austrian Netherlands
-Charles Theodore dies without a legitimate heir in 1799 and Joseph II lays claim to the remainder of the state in exchange for recognizing the legitimacy of the Austrian Netherlands holdings of Charles Theodore's offspring (mostly Karl August who eventually becomes King of Belgium)
-The partition pf Poland goes awry and Joseph II works out a deal with Russia to attack Prussia. Saxony joins Prussia, but number make the difference and Prussia loses. Saxony becomes an Austrian satellite, Russia takes Prussia east of the Vistula, and Silesia returns to Austrian control
-Russia and Austria act together again to invade France in the mid 1790s before Napolean comes to complete power. Although France wins a fwe battles, the Directorate is worried that Francis II will not stop until his aunt is avenged. He is more prudent, however, and takes the whole of Alsace as placation. French irredentalism will prove difficult in coming years. Russia is bought off for cash and trade rights along with the need to quell rebellion at home.
-Napolean comes to power, history continues somewhat like OTL however Ansbach, Wirttemburg, and Pfalz agree to accept Austrian transit and "protection" in exchange for security against Napolean.
-Napoleonic wars play out as they do largely in OTL, at the Congress of Vienna however this time Austria unites southern Germany with Silesia and Saxony (per Russian demands as their pound of flesh is recognition over Prussian Poland). Wurzburg and Trier also become Austrian possessions. Prussia is furious but they make gains as well.
-Other German states begin agitating for union of a pan-German nation
-By 1850 only Prussia remains beyond Austrian control but otherwise Germany is united. Hungary secedes but maintains close relations with Austria.
 
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