Effects of a Failed Operation Sealion in British Popular Culture

[Dave Howery]

Operation Sealion? Launched in the face of the RN?
Well, the Home Guard would be true heroes here, beating the enemy in classic British style... sitting in lawn chairs on the beach, sipping tea, and occasionally getting up to club some poor German who drags himself onto the shore...

 

[MattII]

Quite what gave you the impression that I believed that the LDV/Home Guard were Britain's only defences in 1940/1941 is beyond me.

Maybe because you don't actually mention anyone else in your posts.

Your rude tone makes me disinclined to respond in much further detail, but I would point out that, despite video games and Hollywood's impressions, taking weapons from the enemy was very rare in WWII, because of supply reasons.

What, supply reasons of the enemy not having many bullets, or supply reasons of German bullets not working with British guns?

 

[Thande]

Hitler would get associated with Trafalgar in terms of poor planning the way he is with the Grand Armee now.

As I said above I think the Spanish Armada is a more likely comparison: failed invasion, rather than a potential invasion fleet being sunk a long way away.

 

[Meadow]

Maybe because you don't actually mention anyone else in your posts.

What, supply reasons of the enemy not having many bullets, or supply reasons of German bullets not working with British guns?

The latter.

And why should I be expected to mention all aspects of the British defence in a post about how the Home Guard would be perceived in a world where Sealion took place? This isn't a thread about the British defences, or the operation's feasibility - there are plenty of others for that.

 

[MattII]

The latter.

So the fact that the LDV was themselves short of guns means that they'll ignore perfectly good weapons just because the bullets don't work with other guns?

And why should I be expected to mention all aspects of the British defence in a post about how the Home Guard would be perceived in a world where Sealion took place?

Because you seem to be down-playing the Guards' readiness. Yes they were under-armed, but they were most of them ex-soldiers, knew the areas they were working in, and had had time to dig in. The German OTOH may have been well armed, but they wouldn't know about where they'd be fighting and would have only limited supplies and ammunition themselves.

 

[Josephus]

So on the plus side many of the Guards were WWI veterans but on the other hand weren't their officers, too?

 

[The Red]

Because you seem to be down-playing the Guards' readiness. Yes they were under-armed, but they were most of them ex-soldiers, knew the areas they were working in, and had had time to dig in. The German OTOH may have been well armed, but they wouldn't know about where they'd be fighting and would have only limited supplies and ammunition themselves.

The problem with your argument is that this scenario already happened.

It didn't end well for the 'Home Guard'

 

[jaybird]

The problem with your argument is that this scenario already happened.

It didn't end well for the 'Home Guard'

If you can't tell the difference between Volkssturm fighting the Red Army in Berlin and Home Guard fighting the Heer in Dover, I don't know what to say to you.

 

[MattII]

The problem with your argument is that this scenario already happened.

It didn't end well for the 'Home Guard'

If that's meant to be the Germans in 1945, remember that the Germans in 1940 weren't getting tanks (or even vehicles in any great number), were getting only intermittent air cover, and were getting little resupply. The Germans would also be outnumbered.

 

[Meadow]

So the fact that the LDV was themselves short of guns means that they'll ignore perfectly good weapons just because the bullets don't work with other guns?

Because you seem to be down-playing the Guards' readiness. Yes they were under-armed, but they were most of them ex-soldiers, knew the areas they were working in, and had had time to dig in. The German OTOH may have been well armed, but they wouldn't know about where they'd be fighting and would have only limited supplies and ammunition themselves.

You're being quite simplistic on this - the problem is not that the bullets in the MG34 won't work in the Bren, it's that once you've fired off what's left in it, you're not going to get any more bullets through the British supply lines.

And to your second point - I wasn't. Evidently you've got a hang-up about them - a family connection, perhaps? As said before, I'm not getting into a Sealion feasibility debate with you. This isn't the time or place.

 

[Thande]

The worthiness or otherwise of the Home Guard is a rather irrelevant question when they won't be doing anything more frontline than maybe guarding German prisoners anyway.

 

[Orville_third]

Of course who would die in this invasion? Would Generals? Admirals? C.S. Lewis? Jasper Maskelyne? Churchill?

 

[MattII]

You're being quite simplistic on this - the problem is not that the bullets in the MG34 won't work in the Bren, it's that once you've fired off what's left in it, you're not going to get any more bullets through the British supply lines.

So throw the damn thing away when you're out of bullets. A rifle with 20 bullets still beats a knife in a straight-up fight.

And to your second point - I wasn't. Evidently you've got a hang-up about them - a family connection, perhaps? As said before, I'm not getting into a Sealion feasibility debate with you. This isn't the time or place.

Curbstomped by Germans, getting routed by disciplined units, no more than a nuisance to invading forces? These are ex-soldiers fighting on and for their home turf against an enemy only a little better armed than them and who don't know the area. Even if it were only the Home Guard out there, I still wouldn't expect the Germans to have a picnic on their hands, they're facing too many enemies who are too familiar with the areas, and have armoured cars (some military grade, most hasty conversions, but then, a car of the era, even without a gun, is still going to be a pretty nasty thing to come up against).

The stories surrounding the Home Guard would be much more serious I suspect.

 

[Meadow]

All I'm going to say to you is that until you provide a source for your claim that most Home Guard men had combat experience in WWI, and in fact any respected historian who supports your idea that the Home Guard were ever even intended to be an effective combat force against the Germans, let alone were actually one, you are simply shouting into the wind. I mean this without the intention of offence, but your rather blinkered view of the whole thing (particularly the Call Of Duty attitude to using found or enemy firearms) is just coming across as a little silly.

Back on topic, I quite like the idea of a thread full of 'If Sealion was tried and failed' pop culture pieces like films. Perhaps something like this:

Thirty Days Hath September was an extremely popular film about the month-long Battle of Britain. Beginning with the now iconic scene of lighthouse operator John Bullingdon (played by Will Hay) spotting invasion craft in their hundreds looming towards the coast and later presenting the Battle of Eythorne in a portrayal unrivalled even today, the film was an immediate propaganda success for Britain, and was voted the most influential film of the war by historians, beating American blockbuster 'Casablanca'. Since its release in 1942 the film has become a national treasure, and launched the career of its stars Phillip Gould and Harriet Wyndham.

 

[patch_g]

Of course who would die in this invasion? Would Generals? Admirals? C.S. Lewis? Jasper Maskelyne? Churchill?

There's a chance Spike Milligan is killed. His battery had observation posts right where at least one German division was scheduled to come ashore.

 

[The Red]

If that's meant to be the Germans in 1945, remember that the Germans in 1940 weren't getting tanks (or even vehicles in any great number), were getting only intermittent air cover, and were getting little resupply. The Germans would also be outnumbered.

The Volkssturm had effective anti tank SPG's, whilst the Soviets lacked air cover and were at the end of arguably the longest supply effort in history (central Asia to western Europe). Numbers are pretty irrelevant when superior fire power's involved.

 

[GAB-1955]

If Operation Sealion was launched and failed in summer/autumn 1940, what could be the resulting influence on British culture? For one thing, there would probably be no Battle of Britain movie, or any BoB idealization for that matter, because the RAF wouldn't have really stopped the invasion. Instead, it would have been the Army that valiantly defended the glorious British isles from the Germans.

Any thoughts on this?

I do not claim to know the effect on British popular culture, but it would have had a major effect on American popular culture. Ed Murrow broadcasting from the beaches at Dover with a few of his "Boys"... "I'm standing in a copse of trees about half a mile from the main battle line. The German parachute troops are clustered together, at the intersection of two roads. There was a village there... You can hear the sounds of British cannon - World War One three-pounders - about to fire on the Germans..."

0-0-0

Warner Brothers Picture: "FOR KING AND ENGLAND!" Starring Errol Flynn, Basil Rathbone, Leslie Howard and Merle Oberon.

Screen title: "TAKEN STRAIGHT FROM THE HEADLINES!"

One English village in the brunt of the Nazi invasion!

One English woman - facing down the Hun!

GERMAN OFFICER: So, Lady Baslington, I give you one more chance. WHERE IS THE AMMUNITION CACHE? WHERE IS THE ENGLISH HOME GUARD?

LADY BASLINGTON: I'll never tell! Never!

GERMAN OFFICER slaps LADY BASLINGTON: Schwein! Take her away!

One English Home Guard company - against a horde!

LORD BASLINGTON (Leslie Howard): If we don't stop them here, where can we stop them? Who's with me?

CAPTAIN STOKES (Errol Flynn): I'm with you. But we're going to need more than pitchforks!

FOR KING AND ENGLAND - Coming to a cinema near you!

A Warner Brothers Production.

 

[Devolved]

There's a chance Spike Milligan is killed. His battery had observation posts right where at least one German division was scheduled to come ashore.

No Spike Milligan! Who's going to do crass impersonations of Indians with brown make up? Oh wait we still have Peter Sellars.

Another cultural impact would be that there would be even more jokes about the French surrendering.

 

[Major Major]

Warner Brothers Picture: "FOR KING AND ENGLAND!" Starring Errol Flynn, Basil Rathbone, Leslie Howard and Merle Oberon.

Screen title: "TAKEN STRAIGHT FROM THE HEADLINES!"

One English village in the brunt of the Nazi invasion!

One English woman - facing down the Hun!

CAPTAIN STOKES (Erroll Flynn): We're staying here. As long as we hold the village, the Hun will be checked, and the army will have more time to prepare.

PRIVATE SHOTT (Nigel Bruce): "We know, sir!"

CAPTAIN STOKES [lower]: "Of course, that will probably be the end of us."

PRIVATE SHOTT: "We know."

 

[Delta Force]

How did the Germans expect the Kreigsmarine to defeat the Royal Navy anyways? The Royal Navy so outnumbered the Kreigsmarine that all the sneaky tricks in the world would not make a large invasion possible to carry out without having the Royal Navy come steaming and start sinking everything.