Economic Potential of Third Reich (Post-1939)

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Say after Hitler invades the the rump of Czechoslovakia after Munich, he chokes on a bean burrito and hilariously dies.

I.E. - no Danzig demand, no war.

What would be the economic potential of this enlarged, seemingly pan germanic state immediately after such an event?

What would be short term economic prospects?

Long Term? (Could it potentially have outpaced the growth of Imperial Germany?)

What economic policy-making would you suggest?
 
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Curb down the military expenditure. Like waaay down. Start trading surplus military equipment to Eastern European countries and the world pronto. Reestablish diplomatic relations with the West Europe. Reestablish friendship with the Chinese and initiate barter trade as in weapons for raw materials, while mediating a peace treaty between China and Japan. Thus getting on American good side.

Hopefully those steps should result in starting a real trade in heavy machinery, chemicals and industrial equipment reoriented to civilian use and export purposes. Devaluing RM to reestablish competitetive trade terms. Finally trying to establish a economic, diplomatic and military cooperation of Eastern and Central European countries in case Stalin got some fancy ideas. Eventually, Germany could be a economic powerhouse of Europe, such as it is now.

And handwaving away inevitable chaos that would result from succession and taking it that establishing those policies within the framework of sone sort of moderated Nazi state was at all possible.
 

Deleted member 1487

That's something I've been asking for a while and haven't gotten a good answer. They were clearly the 2nd largest economy in the world, but they are still export dependent, way too heavily invested in armaments, are basically out of foreign exchange, still have Goering as Führer, and are in debt with a lot of countries (plus refused to pay the US back for loans and are thus cut off from some of that capital potential). They are on bad terms with the world at this point, so getting 'normal' again is going to get painful in terms of unemployment as they shift to export production.

They should consider bringing Hjalmar Schacht back, but he may well say no due to his feud with Goering. Germany has a lot of back trade it owes much of Europe, so it can stop armaments, scrap all of their old stuff for raw materials, start paying on what they owe, beg Chamberlain for bridge loans (there were some negotiations for that as late as July 1939 IOTL until the British press found out and scuppered the deal, not that Hitler would have gone for it, but Goering was still viewed as the 'reasonable Nazi' so if he were in charge he can leverage his reputation and demonstrate some dismarmament of the old weapons to appear reasonable), and make vague promises of repaying old US loans if it got access to US capital markets so it could start to reintegrate into world trade instead of threatening war. Supposedly FDR offered Germany a loan in 1940 before they invaded France to pay for the cost of the war if they evacuated Poland and made peace.

Long term they are going to have a lot of issues with education and having proper investments in a well educated, thoughtful youth, plus of course non-weapons relations science. Things could change without Hitler and with letting the Freiburg boys write economic policy, especially with Schacht leading the charge. Trade is still a decent prospect in terms of Latin America and most of Europe and there is no reason why the trade pact with the USSR still couldn't happen and the current Polish trade continue. Spain will be a developing market for Germany, just as Finland would be. Iran is a growing market for them and with time India upon getting independence in the late 1940s or early 50s will be a major potential trade partner. Depending on what happens to Japan (the Axis Pact has not happened yet) China could end up being a massive trade partner down the road; Italy too will be a big helpful partner once Libyan oil comes online by the 1950s. Turkey wants German military goods and other trade, so provided Germany can sort out its rearmament distortions, get right with the US and Britain, cultivate major trade with Russia, and get into Iran, India, and China it has bright trade prospects. Beyond that it will dominate Balkan trade as long as it wants. Germany just needs to remove the Nazi 'reforms' on education and get science investments into things other than weapons, support Konrad Zuse's computer work, and keep the Nazis out of government bureaucracy. That probably isn't going to happen under the Nazis, but once things get sufficiently bad in the wake of Hitler's death and Goering not opting for war out of caution or a coup then the public is not going to accept a declining economy especially as the Nazis besides Hitler were not that popular by 1939.
 
The problem is that Hitler was a homicidal loon who surrounded himself with other homicidal loons. Sane leadership was severely lacking in the upper levels of the Nazi party. If he would have died he probably would have been replaced with some other blood thirsty lunatic. The best case realistic scenario would be if there was an army coup after his death. If that were to happen some of the crazier things of the Nazi Party might not have happened but you would still have had military overspending.
 
Question: Had enough scientific and economic "brain-drain" occured by 1939 to significantly effect the innovation within such a Post-Hitler state?
 

Deleted member 1487

The problem is that Hitler was a homicidal loon who surrounded himself with other homicidal loons. Sane leadership was severely lacking in the upper levels of the Nazi party. If he would have died he probably would have been replaced with some other blood thirsty lunatic. The best case realistic scenario would be if there was an army coup after his death. If that were to happen some of the crazier things of the Nazi Party might not have happened but you would still have had military overspending.
Goering had the most support in 1939 internally and externally. The army didn't like him, but he had the party and public more than anyone and resistance was not really set up and in fact had fallen apart after the British failed to support a forming coup in the run up to Munich; Hitler and Goering's popularity after the success of Munich was too high with the public for the conspirators to challenge, so they fell apart and wouldn't organize quickly enough to prevent Goering's succession.

Goering was a different animal than Hitler though according to Richard Overy's biography on him; assuming Overy is right Goering was not interested in genocide like Hitler war, nor going to war; he took belligerent positions to match Hitler and ensure he stayed in Hitler's good graces and therefore in power; it got him appointed Hitler successor when the war started without question.

Without Hitler you don't get war in 1939 and instead a more cautious foreign policy. Hitler made the decision for war in 1939 and Goering thought they needed more time to build up before going to war, especially if it risked causing a general European war, but dare not oppose Hitler when there were already others encouraging Hitler to take action; Goering in fact thought Ribbentrop, who already thought going to war by before 1942 was too soon, was too aggressive (p.89 Overy, Goering: Hitler's Iron Knight). He was hardly a man of peace though and would probably start leveraging conflict to put pressure on Poland to make concessions to prop up his position as legitimate heir to Hitler in his ability to get foreign policy successes, but he also had a lot of connections with the British and would be a lot more worried about Britain getting involved than Hitler was. It would seem Goering was totally behind the Molotov Ribbentrop pact, so that is pretty much a lock so long as Stalin still goes for it.

Goering seemed more convinced that the British would intervene and would have held back from war and according to Overy (p.92) that he would likely have been able to get Danzig and the Corridor via his relationship with the British ruling class putting pressure on Poland to conform, pretty much leaving them in Germany's economic domain, even if nominally politically independent. Apparently even after the war started IOTL there was the opinion in Britain and the US that Goering would overthrow Hitler and make peace due to his effective efforts at appearing concilliatory, but that changed as time went on obviously (p.93). Goering not going to war in September, but leveraging his contacts to get Britain to back him on Danzig and the Corridor would leave Poland part of Germany's 'Large Area Economy' that included the Balkans and Hungary and Slovakia at this point and pretty much laid the ground work for incorporating it's resource base into Germany's economic planning.

With that it seems like Goering's plan was to wait 4-5 year before getting into any serious war, but given how much the rest of the world was losing patience with the Nazis its likely that the economy would start to suffer significantly before that, especially as Chamberlain is unlikely to remain PM after making more concessions to the Nazis, even with Goering at the helm. Plus further efforts to subordinate Poland after a Danzig/Corridor deal would pretty much ensure that they would get a Churchill in power who would take a much harder line and the extra time the Allies got to rearm would pretty much ensure the Nazis would be caught in a bad position of having strong enemies all around and falling behind in rearmament. According to Overy the Nazis were getting intelligence that Allied rearmament was running into all sorts of problems, so by the time they realize they are overtaken it would be too late to go to war and Goering was always more interested in preserving his power than in fighting a losing war.

If the Poland initiative works out in Goering's favor then he probably gets until 1942 before really having to stop rearmament, but if not then he's forced to back down in 1939 to avoid war over Poland, which he wanted to avoid because of his belief that a general war in Europe in 1939 would bring Germany's defeat; he of course changed him tune when Poland was quickly defeated and Germany's position in Europe was secured via Soviet supplies, but prior to the war he was very much against risking war with Britain and was furious when the war started as a result. A political defeat over Danzig would undermine him politically, then you could see an army coup really starting to form, especially with the Allies taking an increasingly harder line, but that could also happen later even if the Danzig issue resolves for Goering because of the economic issues and fear of Allied rearmament in German military circles.

War may still happen at some point, but Goering would probably try to avoid it if he had doubts about being able to win.

Question: Had enough scientific and economic "brain-drain" occured by 1939 to significantly effect the innovation within such a Post-Hitler state?
Depends on what category; the worst hit the theoretical physics establishment. However Nazi non-organization of research and technology was the bigger problem; having Goering in charge might change that, but probably not. You'd need a post-Nazi government for that unless things worked out over time.
 
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I had no idea that Goering would be so much better than the other Nazis. He seems more like those South American dictators or Franco than the kind like Hitler and Himmler.
 

Deleted member 1487

I had no idea that Goering would be so much better than the other Nazis. He seems more like those South American dictators or Franco than the kind like Hitler and Himmler.
Eh, he was still a scumbag, just more pragmatic than the hardcore ideologues. He was still racist against Jews, but stopped and wanting to rob them blind and kick them out of the country penniless; still he had no problem ordering and carrying out the Holocaust when Hitler told him to get it done. Without Hitler Goering can be more pragmatic, but without that Hitler mentality you skip over the lucky wins early on.
 
First priority would be to wind down the armaments industry and get exports moving ASAP. The latter is difficult in 1938/39 because so much of the world is still protectionist to a fault, but there are definitely opportunities in South America, Eastern Europe, the USSR, and China, and if everyone is short on hard currency maybe it's time to dump the gold standard together, with barter trade as a temporary measure.

Second priority would be to reform the backasswards agricultural sector. 1930s German agriculture was still too fragmented, too labor-intensive, and too unmechanized to achieve economies of scale. It's due partly to tradition, partly to lack of affordable fuel, and partly due to lack of capital investments. Credit unions and cooperative farm ownership take care of the first and last problems, and once trade gets flowing and Germany can afford Soviet, Romanian, Middle Eastern and American oil again the middle problem goes away.
 
First priority would be to wind down the armaments industry and get exports moving ASAP. The latter is difficult in 1938/39 because so much of the world is still protectionist to a fault, but there are definitely opportunities in South America, Eastern Europe, the USSR, and China, and if everyone is short on hard currency maybe it's time to dump the gold standard together, with barter trade as a temporary measure.

I don't think that they sell armaments to USSR,but South America,Eastern Europe and China are good markets.
With a alernate ATL not completly insane Hitler,or if at some point of mid 30s Hitler die and is substituted by Goering,Germany can become the dominant power in Europe without any war.
Is possible also a sort of German NATO with Hungary,Poland,Finland Romania,Bulgaria,Greece,Spain and maybe Turkey,aganist the threat of a Soviet invasion.
 

Deleted member 1487

I don't think that they sell armaments to USSR,but South America,Eastern Europe and China are good markets.
With a alernate ATL not completly insane Hitler,or if at some point of mid 30s Hitler die and is substituted by Goering,Germany can become the dominant power in Europe without any war.
Is possible also a sort of German NATO with Hungary,Poland,Finland Romania,Bulgaria,Greece,Spain and maybe Turkey,aganist the threat of a Soviet invasion.
Why not? They did IOTL:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German–Soviet_Commercial_Agreement_(1940)
The Soviets were to receive the incomplete Admiral Hipper-class naval cruiser Lützow, the plans to the battleship Bismarck, information on German naval testing, "complete machinery for a large destroyer", heavy naval guns, three 38.1 cm (15 inch) twin turrets to defend ports, preliminary sketches for a 40.6 cm triple turret, working drawings for a 28 cm turret, other naval gear and samples of thirty of Germany's latest warplanes, including the Me-109 fighter, Me-110 fighter and Ju-88 bomber.[2][3][4] Stalin believed the Lützow to be important because of its new 20.3 cm naval guns, along with their performance characteristics.[56] The Soviets would also receive oil and electric equipment, locomotives, turbines, generators, diesel engines, ships, machine tools and samples of Germany artillery, tanks, explosives, chemical-warfare equipment and other items.[2]
 
Curb down the military expenditure. Like waaay down. Start trading surplus military equipment to Eastern European countries and the world pronto. Reestablish diplomatic relations with the West Europe. Reestablish friendship with the Chinese and initiate barter trade as in weapons for raw materials, while mediating a peace treaty between China and Japan. Thus getting on American good side.

Hopefully those steps should result in starting a real trade in heavy machinery, chemicals and industrial equipment reoriented to civilian use and export purposes. Devaluing RM to reestablish competitetive trade terms. Finally trying to establish a economic, diplomatic and military cooperation of Eastern and Central European countries in case Stalin got some fancy ideas. Eventually, Germany could be a economic powerhouse of Europe, such as it is now.

And handwaving away inevitable chaos that would result from succession and taking it that establishing those policies within the framework of sone sort of moderated Nazi state was at all possible.

Actually I think the initial chaos would help as it out to thoroughly discredit Goering who would be most likely candidate for Hitler's successor. With his reputation sufficiently in tatters he might be removed. What to do with the rest of the Nazis might be awkward but most were opportunists looking for sinecure jobs rather than the chance to die gloriously for the Reich.

I cannot see a Reich government of any form even with say zero per cent Nazi participation being as efficient as the Bundesrepublik and I doubt the Nazis would be reduced to zero per cent influence for a long while barring a German Franco.

That said Germany ought to have an abundance of exports. It was a world leader in chemical, its engineering skills were up there with most and world leading in some areas. There were items like the nascent Volkwagen which became known as the Beetle OTL and proved to be a world beater.

Compensating for the Germans lower efficiency ITTL is the fact that Europe is richer early on at least and likely to grow as the new technologies that were being developed in the 1930s feed into the economy remember the TV set is still coming in all its glory to the mass market. Global markets ought to still open up long term as the first steps towards the intermodal shipping container should still be on track and its advanatges should still be as obvious.

Germany could be a nice country with a nasty government for a very long time or it might get rid of it earlier but most likely that would look something like the South American transitions. Economically though Germany ought to be a pretty strong player by most outcomes.
 

Deleted member 1487

But a less insane Hitler,or a fuhrer Goering would sign the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact? The pact was finalized to war,but without intention to invade Poland and start the European war,why German should agree with Stalin?
Yep, to put pressure on Poland politically and the Wallies that they couldn't count on Soviet intervention; that paves the way to expanded trade too. It creates the feeling that Germany can go to war to get what it wants or else, because there is no two front war possibility. The publicly announced pact IOTL only covered a non-aggression agreement, so there is nothing wrong with that, other than it undermines the anti-comintern agreement. If Germany were able to leverage the West again into getting Poland to give up Danzig and start getting economically coopted then the secret protocols would come into effect so that Stalin can have his taste too.


Not is more probable that Germany poses as defender of Europe aganist communism?
And in this case sell weapons to Stalin would be crazy.
Germany could publicly position itself as the only option against Stalin once Stalin starts making demands like IOTL on small neutrals, but in terms of the arms sales they did that IOTL despite Stalin being on the chopping block in 1941. If Germany were desperate for trade and the USSR was offering a big deal, then Germany would be silly not to accept it if it was not getting enough trade internationally. They can still position themselves as the only reliable ally against Stalin given Wallied weakness in defending the Little Entente and Poland ITTL, even as they trade because really who else are the minor powers of the Balkans and Scandinavia really going to turn to if the Wallies step back again on Poland?
 
Yep, to put pressure on Poland politically and the Wallies that they couldn't count on Soviet intervention; that paves the way to expanded trade too. It creates the feeling that Germany can go to war to get what it wants or else, because there is no two front war possibility. The publicly announced pact IOTL only covered a non-aggression agreement, so there is nothing wrong with that, other than it undermines the anti-comintern agreement. If Germany were able to leverage the West again into getting Poland to give up Danzig and start getting economically coopted then the secret protocols would come into effect so that Stalin can have his taste too.



Germany could publicly position itself as the only option against Stalin once Stalin starts making demands like IOTL on small neutrals, but in terms of the arms sales they did that IOTL despite Stalin being on the chopping block in 1941. If Germany were desperate for trade and the USSR was offering a big deal, then Germany would be silly not to accept it if it was not getting enough trade internationally. They can still position themselves as the only reliable ally against Stalin given Wallied weakness in defending the Little Entente and Poland ITTL, even as they trade because really who else are the minor powers of the Balkans and Scandinavia really going to turn to if the Wallies step back again on Poland?
The Western Allies are not going to sell out Poland to Germany, even if Hitler is dead. Goering will be seen as Hitler's heir, and inherit all the mistrust. It's not like he can plausibly claim to have been out of the loop when the Nazis were moving on Prague. The flagrant betrayal of the Munich Agreement before the ink was even dry would still be fresh on everyone's minds.

So if no war, then the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact can't include much of the secret protocols divvying up Eastern Europe, as a German invasion of Poland is off the cards. That means Stalin won't be eating various minors, as he was far too cautious to do that without the cover of WWII.
 

Deleted member 1487

The Western Allies are not going to sell out Poland to Germany, even if Hitler is dead. Goering will be seen as Hitler's heir, and inherit all the mistrust. It's not like he can plausibly claim to have been out of the loop when the Nazis were moving on Prague. The flagrant betrayal of the Munich Agreement before the ink was even dry would still be fresh on everyone's minds.

So if no war, then the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact can't include much of the secret protocols divvying up Eastern Europe, as a German invasion of Poland is off the cards. That means Stalin won't be eating various minors, as he was far too cautious to do that without the cover of WWII.
I'm not so sure about the British not attempting to appease over Danzig with enough time; historian Richard Overy is convinced the British might have leveraged the Poles over Danzig. As it was they got the Poles to demobilize right before the Germans invaded:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland#Prelude
On the other hand, British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain and his Foreign Secretary, Lord Halifax, still hoped to strike a deal with Hitler regarding Danzig (and possibly the Polish Corridor), and Hitler hoped for the same. Chamberlain and his supporters believed war could be avoided and hoped Germany would agree to leave the rest of Poland alone. German hegemony over Central Europe was also at stake. In private, Hitler revealed in May that Danzig was not the real issue to him, but pursuit of Lebensraum for Germany.[32]
The Molotov-Ribbentrop pact really unsettled the Allies and Goering's efforts were apparently gaining traction IOTL. Plus without Hitler Goering can at least play to the point that he's not Hitler and deals Hitler made didn't bind him, plus he can also say he needs a foreign policy victory to cement his weak hold on the German government after Hitler's death so getting the German majority Danzig back with extra-territorial land links would would be a minor concession to working with the 'moderate' Goering ITTL. IOTL Goering lost his credibility diplomatically after the invasion when it became clear in negotiations that he firmly backed Hitler and wasn't going to deviate from Hitler's line.

However, with the surprise signing of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact on 23 August, the result of secret Nazi-Soviet talks held in Moscow, Germany neutralized the possibility of Soviet opposition to a campaign against Poland and war became imminent. In fact, the Soviets agreed not to aid France or the UK in the event of their going to war with Germany over Poland and, in a secret protocol of the pact, the Germans and the Soviets agreed to divide Eastern Europe, including Poland, into two spheres of influence; the western ⅓ of the country was to go to Germany and the eastern ⅔ to the Soviet Union.


The German assault was originally scheduled to begin at 04:00 on 26 August. However, on 25 August, the Polish-British Common Defense Pact was signed as an annex to the Franco-Polish Military Alliance. In this accord, Britain committed itself to the defence of Poland, guaranteeing to preserve Polish independence. At the same time, the British and the Poles were hinting to Berlin that they were willing to resume discussions—not at all how Hitler hoped to frame the conflict. Thus, he wavered and postponed his attack until 1 September, managing to in effect halt the entire invasion "in mid-leap".


On 29 August, prompted by the British, Germany issued one last diplomatic offer, with Fall Weiss "Case White" yet to be rescheduled. That evening, the German government responded in a communication that it aimed not only for the restoration of Danzig but also the Polish Corridor (which had not previously been part of Hitler’s demands) in addition to the safeguarding of the German minority in Poland. It said that they were willing to commence negotiations, but indicated that a Polish representative with the power to sign an agreement had to arrive in Berlin the next day while in the meantime it would draw up a set of proposals.[36]



The British Cabinet was pleased that negotiations had been agreed to but, mindful of how Emil Hácha had been forced to sign his country away under similar circumstances just months earlier, regarded the requirement for an immediate arrival of a Polish representative with full signing powers as an unacceptable ultimatum.[37][38] On the night of 30/31 August, German Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop read a 16-point German proposal to the British ambassador. When the ambassador requested a copy of the proposals for transmission to the Polish government Ribbentrop refused on the grounds that the requested Polish representative had failed to arrive by midnight.[39] When Polish Ambassador Lipski went to see Ribbentrop later on 31 August to indicate that Poland was favorably disposed to negotiations, he announced that he did not have the full power to sign, and Ribbentrop dismissed him. It was then broadcast that Poland had rejected Germany's offer, and negotiations with Poland came to an end. Hitler issued orders for the invasion to commence soon afterwards.


On 30 August, the Polish Navy sent its destroyer flotilla to Britain, executing Operation Peking. On the same day, Marshal of Poland Edward Rydz-Śmigły announced the mobilization of Polish troops. However, he was pressured into revoking the order by the French, who apparently still hoped for a diplomatic settlement, failing to realize that the Germans were fully mobilized and concentrated at the Polish border.[40]


On 31 August 1939, Hitler ordered hostilities against Poland to start at 4:45 the next morning. Because of the earlier stoppage, Poland managed to mobilize only 70% of its planned forces, and many units were still forming or moving to their designated frontline positions.
Without Goering being willing to abandon the diplomatic option he wouldn't order the war and was on pace to get Danzig and extra territorial links to East Prussia; IOTL Hitler dashed that by ordering the invasion because he thought the negotiations meant the Allies wouldn't go to war; Goering had no such illusions however and was set on scoring a diplomatic victory to preclude war and using the control over Danzig to leverage Poland economically into Germany's orbit. Every indication was to the end that the Allies and Poland were willing to work with German demands, not fight if they had the choice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Corridor#Ultimatum_of_1939
A revised and less favorable proposal came in the form of an ultimatum delivered by the Nazis in late August, after the orders had already been given to attack Poland on September 1, 1939. Nevertheless, at midnight on August 29, Joachim von Ribbentrop handed British Ambassador Sir Neville Henderson a list of terms that would allegedly ensure peace in regard to Poland. Danzig was to return to Germany and there was to be a plebiscite in the Polish Corridor; Poles who had been born or had settled there since 1919 would have no vote, while all Germans born but not living there would. An exchange of minority populations between the two countries was proposed. If Poland accepted these terms, Germany would agree to the British offer of an international guarantee, which would include the Soviet Union. A Polish plenipotentiary, with full powers, was to arrive in Berlin and accept these terms by noon the next day. The British Cabinet viewed the terms as "reasonable," except the demand for a Polish Plenipotentiary, which was seen as similar to Czechoslovak President Emil Hácha accepting Hitler's terms in mid-March 1939.
When Ambassador Józef Lipski went to see Ribbentrop on August 30, he was presented with Hitler’s demands. However, he did not have the full power to sign and Ribbentrop ended the meeting. News was then broadcast that Poland had rejected Germany's offer.[84]
 
It would really depend on how Goering's went about his approaches. Because now he would have to worry about internal affairs and external much more then in OTL. Since even though Goering was Hitler's appointed successor, many within the Nazi party would view him as a traitor if he doesn't follow a similar path that Hitler did/would and rid him for someone more hard-line. He was also a supporter of the guerre-de-course Which was a navy focused around U-boats, Light Cruisers, and "Pocket Battleships". This combination was the most dangerous for the U.K to deal with if a war occurred, and they'd likely do their best to keep Goering to adhere to the Anglo-German Naval Agreement that was signed in 1935.

The game would be a heavy play of pushing a power really. Britain would be willing to give concessions (military not so much territoriality) for as long as Germany stayed within certain guide lines. Equipment and exports most likely wouldn't go through the Soviet Union as the trade agreements between the two was meant as a way to have enough supply of oil to fuel the war machine. Their would be overtures to the Hungarians, Romanians, and the British to secure oil reserves before the Soviet Union was approached. Their international trade still hovered around 110 billion RM in 1936 and 1938, which was 40 percent lower then in 1929.

Germany was also based on recovering her economy not by an increase of exports but by an increase of domestic demand, making their economy "self-sufficient" Trying to pay for the small amount of imports that it needed( being pretty much only Raw Materials and a small amount of foreign domestic products) their was considerable difficulty with paying for these things. It would take many years of this sort of practice before Germany would be a strong independent economic power.
 

Deleted member 1487

It would really depend on how Goering's went about his approaches. Because now he would have to worry about internal affairs and external much more then in OTL. Since even though Goering was Hitler's appointed successor, many within the Nazi party would view him as a traitor if he doesn't follow a similar path that Hitler did/would and rid him for someone more hard-line. He was also a supporter of the guerre-de-course Which was a navy focused around U-boats, Light Cruisers, and "Pocket Battleships". This combination was the most dangerous for the U.K to deal with if a war occurred, and they'd likely do their best to keep Goering to adhere to the Anglo-German Naval Agreement that was signed in 1935.
That's the thing, Hitler had not set a public policy within the party; it was very ad hoc and the party obeyed what they were told; he hadn't passed down a verdict on Poland by the time of the POD and even after he did it was only to a handful of his inner circle not the party and it was still flexible based on the situation.

Also part of the office of the Führer was obeying his orders, not questioning them by the gauleiter and rank and file. Yes, Goering was not Hitler in terms of loyalty, but pretty close. And remember Hitler did not say he was for war, in fact to the public he said he was anti-war, but pro-unifying German speaking people, which Goering would be going for in terms of Danzig. The hard liners in the party would have to deal with the military supporting Goering over them if he holds back from war, as the military was not pro-war because they thought they would lose.

It would be interesting to see Goering's dealings with the navy as Führer (and the economy if he was stepping out of the 4 year plan office), as he hated Raeder and never got on with the navy.

The game would be a heavy play of pushing a power really. Britain would be willing to give concessions (military not so much territoriality) for as long as Germany stayed within certain guide lines. Equipment and exports most likely wouldn't go through the Soviet Union as the trade agreements between the two was meant as a way to have enough supply of oil to fuel the war machine. Their would be overtures to the Hungarians, Romanians, and the British to secure oil reserves before the Soviet Union was approached. Their international trade still hovered around 110 billion RM in 1936 and 1938, which was 40 percent lower then in 1929.
German trade with the USSR was going on before the war, it had dropped off after Hitler got into office, but picked up against after 1936; if they sign the Molotov-Ribbentrop deal then it probably starts to expand that trade back to at least the 1932 levels if not beyond that if Germany needed trade if they went the non-war route and it was getting hard to get further trade due to US and French hostility.

Remember the Nazi-Soviet credit agreement was signed before the MR pact:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Credit_Agreement_%281939%29

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi–Soviet_economic_relations_(1934–41)
By the late 1930s, foreign trade became difficult because Germany lacked the gold or foreign exchange needed to finance any balance of payment deficit.[67] Further damaging foreign trade, Germany had already heavily regulated exports and imports, requiring licenses and approval for all trades so that it could favor the raw materials imports that it desperately need.[67] Additional trading difficulties were caused by a boycott of German goods following Kristallnacht in November 1938.[68]


Because an autarkic economic approach or an alliance with Britain were impossible, Germany needed to arrange closer relations with the Soviet Union, if not just for economic reasons alone.[1] Despite work on coal hydrogenisation,[69] Germany lacked oil and could only supply 25% of its own needs.[1] Since its main supplier, the United States, would be potentially cut off during a war, Germany had to look to Russia and Romania.[1] Germany suffered from the same supply problems for metal ores such as chrome, tungsten, nickel, molybdenum, and manganese, all of which were needed for hardened steel used in tanks, ships and other war equipment.[1] For example, Germany was almost 100% reliant on imports for chrome, and the loss of South African and Turkish imports along were a blockade to arise would eliminate 80% of imports.[70] Even for manganese, of which Germany supplied 40% of its needs, the expected British blockade would cut its link to its main outside supplier, South Africa.[1] Germany was 35% self-sufficient for iron ore, but would lose 36% of its previous imported supply on the outbreak of war.[70] Furthermore, Stalin's permission was needed to transit tungsten and molybdenum from China, which required Soviet-controlled rail lines.[1] Meanwhile, the Soviet Union was the world's largest source of manganese, the second largest for chrome and platinum and the third largest supplier of crude oil, iron ore and nickel.[70]

In 1936, Hermann Göring told several German industrialists that "obtaining raw materials from Russia is so important that he shall raise this issue with Hitler himself—however much the latter might be ill-disposed to accept this."[74] By 1937, the vast gulf between raw material needs and supplies had taken over Hitler's thinking for conquest. German military industry desperately needed certain raw materials, such as manganese ore and petroleum, and these could be purchased on a regular basis only from the Soviet Union.[74] Goering had stated that Germany desired business ties with the Russians "at any cost."[74]


After hearing the dire reports of German planners, in a November 5, 1937 meeting he told his generals that he would have to take over a neighboring country to ensure the supply of agricultural land and raw materials, now equating this massive economic need with Lebensraum.[75] The German Anschluss and German occupation of Czechoslovakia were driven by economic as much as racial motives, with heavy industry in those locations being gobbled up by the Reichswehr rather than private industry.[75] The day German forces entered the Czech Sudetenland, Hermann Göring pored over figures with generals covering every item of Sudeten economic resources, from lignite to margarine, so that it could be allocated to the Four Year Plan.[75] In January 1939, the huge Four Year Plan goals combined with a shortage of foreign hard currencies needed to pay for raw materials forced Hitler to order major defense cuts, including a reduction by the Wehrmacht of its allocations by 30% of steel, 47% of aluminum, 25% of cement, 14% of rubber and 20% of copper.[76] On January 30, 1939, Hitler made his "Export or die" speech calling for a German economic offensive ("export battle", to use Hitler's term), to increase German foreign exchange holdings to pay for raw materials such high-grade iron needed for military materials.[76]

Germany and the Soviet Union discussed entering into an economic deal throughout early 1939.[77] During spring and summer 1939, the Soviets negotiated a political and military pact with France and Britain, while at the same time talking with German officials about a potential political Soviet–German agreement.[78] Through economic discussion in April and May, Germany and the Soviet Union hinted of discussing a political agreement.[79][80][81][63][82][83][84][85][86][87]


Ensuing political discussions between the countries were channeled through the economic negotiation, because the economic needs of the two sides were substantial and because close military and diplomatic connections had been severed in the mid-1930s after the creation of the Anti-Comintern Pact and the Spanish Civil War, leaving these talks as the only means of communication.[88] German planners in April and May 1939 feared massive oil, food, rubber and metal ore shortages without Soviet help in the event of a war.[73][89][89]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi–Soviet_economic_relations_(1934–41)#cite_note-ericson44-89
In late July and early August, the Soviet Union and Germany were very close to finalizing the terms of a proposed economic deal and began to more concretely discuss the possibility of a political deal, which the Soviets insisted could only follow after an economic deal was reached.[90][91] They discussed prior hostilities between the countries in the 1930s and addressed their common ground of anti-capitalism, stating "there is one common element in the ideology of Germany, Italy and the Soviet Union: opposition to the capitalist democracies,"[92][93] "neither we nor Italy have anything in common with the capitalist west" and "it seems to us rather unnatural that a socialist state would stand on the side of the western democracies."[94] The Germans explained that their prior hostility toward Soviet Bolshevism had subsided with the changes in the Comintern and the Soviet renunciation of a world revolution.[94] The Soviet official at the meeting characterized the conversation as "extremely important."[94]


Even without the war the lack of hard currency made barter with the Soviets pretty much necessary, just as Soviet lack of hard currency made barter trade with Germany very necessary too (the Soviets had lost most of their export markets during the Great Depression and the German economy needed what they had to offer and they needed what the Germans offered).

Germany was also based on recovering her economy not by an increase of exports but by an increase of domestic demand, making their economy "self-sufficient" Trying to pay for the small amount of imports that it needed( being pretty much only Raw Materials and a small amount of foreign domestic products) their was considerable difficulty with paying for these things. It would take many years of this sort of practice before Germany would be a strong independent economic power.
They could work out deals with the USSR if lack of foreign currency was that big an issue, which they did in August 1939 IOTL. They already had a barter system they were behind on making payments for in the Balkans and parts of Europe. Its likely Goering would be forced to accept that autarky was not a viable option in the long run, even as they economically dominate large sections of Europe without war, especially if they don't go to war. Its just that in the long run they will have a lot more options in terms of trade by going to autarkic route as far as they had by developing all these other processes; Italy was going to be a major trade partner when Libyan oil comes online and the Soviets with the Polish buffer and not having them move on the Baltics and Finland will be helpful barter partners too, especially if Germany can continue to dominate trade with the Baltics and Finland. Not going for autarky and instead leveraging their tech advantages to help develop friendly partners like Iran, Turkey, Spain, Finland, Sweden, Holland, Italy, Hungary, Romania, Slovakia, and much of the Balkans (Greece for instance before the invasion of Italy was a pro-Nazi Fascist state), not to mention Latin America and later potentially China and India, would all be very valuable trade partners for a surviving Nazi Germany that is able to do more with its internal resources and not need to import as much.
 

Deleted member 1487

Found this thread on international GNPs on the eve of war:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=191325
Reconstructing World National Products in 1938

The Nominal National Products of the major powers in 1938, in current dollars:

(1) United States: 84.7 billion
(2) Germany: 46.0 billion*
(3) UK: 27.51 billion
(4) USSR: 23.02 billion
(5) France: 16.18 billion
(6) Italy: 8.68 billion
(7) Japan: 7.49 billion

The per capita figures:

(1) United States: 649
(2) Germany: 590
(3) UK: 579
(4) USSR: 138
(5) France: 385
(6) Italy: 200
(7) Japan: 104

*Note that Germany's figures includes Austria and parts of Czechoslovakia, as they were annexed into the country in 1938.

Not including the Czech protectorate or Slovakia Germany had more than half of the US's GDP. With Czecho it probably is around $50 Billion in IIRC 1990s dollars. So about 59% of US GNP after establishing the Czech protectorate in March 1939. That's a lot of potential if they can get off armament production and find a way to get keyed back into the world finance markets and trade. Plus if they can pressure Chamberlain into accepting the Danzig/Corridor deal they will be doing even better by slowly coopting Polish trade and then later signing major deals with Stalin for trade.
 
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