Earlier Suborbital X-15 flight?

[SpaceGeek]

Here's a possible scenerio. The X-15 becomes not only the world's first spaceplane but also the world's first manned spacecraft. The United States, worried the Soviet Union will beat them before Mercury is prepared flies the X-15 on a suborbital trajectory first.

How soon could it happen? 1959? 1960? 1961? This probabley makes a big difference. If NASA can send a man in space on the Suborbital X-15 spaceplane a full two years before Vostok-1, it's likely the public perception would still be that America is ahead in the Space-Race. Yuri Gagarin may be the first man in Orbit but by no means the first or second or even third man in space. Obviously Project Mercury is still neccesary as ballistic capsules are needed for Orbital spaceflight and that means testing them suborbitally.

Alan Shepard wouldn't be the first American in Space but rather Scott Crossfield. IIRC the X-15 could also carry a two person crew as long as it didn't take any scientific payload with it. Scientifically Worthless this would also beat Voskhod 1 to being the first multi-person spaceflight.

Could the X-15 have flown earlier?

 

[Michel Van]

Could the X-15 have flown earlier?

Nope, but they could shorten the test flights, they need 77 Flights until first X-15 reach space.
if NASA had go for Altitude record in first place, already at flight 30 a X-15 reach space december 1960.
then would be Albert Crossfield or Neil Armstrong ! the first in Space

according thé Fédération Aéronautique Internationale (FAI) start Space at 100 kilometer altitude
while US definition of space, start at 50 miles or 80 kilometer altitude.

Even if they make the record flight with X-15 to over 80 Km high
the FAI could not homologate the record or that X-15 pilot is first in space

so the X-15 flight must go to over the 100 km mark

 

[SpaceGeek]

Ok,

December 9th 1960:
First Man in Space: Neil Armstrong
31st flight of the X-15 (30th powered flight).
A full four months ahead of Yuri Gagarin's Vostok-1.

Hence the X-15 is more famous and well known to the public. Mercury-Atlas sends the first American into Orbit in 1962. Gemini also continues as in OTL as does Apollo. The X-15 might gain enough public support to warrent upgrades such as the X-15A-3. This varrient was planned to perform Mach 8 missions.

X-15, Mercury, Gemini, Apollo.

 

[The Kiat]

according thé Fédération Aéronautique Internationale (FAI) start Space at 100 kilometer altitude while US definition of space, start at 50 miles or 80 kilometer altitude.

They also have to take off, pilot and land in the aerospacecraft. As I recall, Cosmonauts ejected from the Vostok capsules and landed via parachute. That would mean, legally speaking, John Glenn would be the first man in orbit.

 

[Emperor Norton I]

Maybe it could lend backing to space planes in the public psychology.

 

[SpaceGeek]

Keep in mind the Soviets lied about that untill 1989. So they awarded the Soviets the record in 61. So they would still maintain the record for several decades. Plus when people did know, I think we all still consider Yuri Gagarin to be the first man in space.

Also how is this any different than OTL. IOTL Alan Shepard was the first man to be in space "legally speaking" and Glenn was the first to be in orbit "legally speaking"

 

[The Kiat]

Rules are rules, and the Soviets broke them. I don't expect anything to happen retroactively (I expect even less people to actually care), but I'm just saying you got to land in your craft in order to get that record.

Add: There is a point to nitpicking by law and by fact records. Hiram Maxim flew an aircraft about a decade before the Wright brothers. It left the rail, flew a little ways, then crashed. But is he remembered as the first man to fly (a heavier-than-air)?

 

[Emperor Norton I]

Look, if you get into outer space, then you're the first man in space. I don't care if some group that never got there artificially made up a gauntlet to go through to make it really count, in their own estimation. Space is space, he was the first man there, therefore he's the first man into space.

 

[SpaceGeek]

Look, if you get into outer space, then you're the first man in space. I don't care if some group that never got there artificially made up a gauntlet to go through to make it really count, in their own estimation. Space is space, he was the first man there, therefore he's the first man into space.

I second that. If I go to the Moon or Mars but I'm forced to eject at the last second. That doesn't count? Of coarse it does, everybody would recognise that person as the first on the Moon or Mars and everybody recognises Yuri Gagarin as the first man in Space/Orbit even after we learned of his last minute parachuting.

I understand it when we are talking about setting a clear line 100-80 km is roughly the point where the mesosphere ends and the vaccume of space becomes really really apparent. In fact there was a proposal for the X-15B to perform a single orbit with a Perigee as low as 75 km and an apogee of just 120 km. So 80 or 100 km is a fair dividing line to get into Space. But you wouldn't consider Felix Baumgartner's 40 km balloon mission "in space" because it was only 40 km! That's still in the stratosphere!

I note that this is all irrelevant. The X-15 traveled over 92 km as early as 1962 and traveled slightly over 100 km in 1963. On both occasions the pilot landed in his vehicle. It shouldn't be too hard to accelerate that to 1960.

 

[Just Leo]

Officially, wikipedia recognized Yuri Gagarin as the first man in space, and the first man in orbit. Joe Walker piloted the X-15 into FAI space 2 years later. The flight lasted 12 minutes. The FAI is the internationally recognized governing body for establishing flight records. Did the FAI create rules for what constitutes orbit? Who cares? Yuri Gagarin landed. Alan Shepard splashed down. Does that make a difference?

 

[SpaceGeek]

An Orbit is just a ballistic trajectory that doesn't intersect the ground at any point. This neccesitates the trajectory spend atleast most of it's time outside the atmosphere, otherwise it will intersect the ground because of atmospheric drag.

Of coarse it can be quite low in Space and still orbit the Earth a couple of times before drag brings it back down to Earh. This is called a decaying orbit.

Yuri Gagarin had a perigee of just 169 km and an apogee of 327 km.

Apollo 8 had a parking orbit of 190.6 km x 183.2 km.

The lowest orbit possible would roughly be that of the proposed X-15B's orbit. 75 km x 120 km. This was so low it would barely allow for a single orbit before drag brought it down.

http://www.spacefacts.de/ballistic/english/x-15_1.htm
Robert White performed a 96 km suborbital spaceflight on the X-15 in 1962. If they had focused soley on high altitude missions in the early phases of the program they could perform a Suborbital mission in 1960/1961.

 

[jlckansas]

Sanger orbit.

I am curious if a Sanger space plane type orbit would work? You get the X15 up high enough and let it bounce off of the atmosphere around the earth like the Sanger was supposed to do. I think this would count as an orbit if you went all the way around.

 

[e of pi]

I am curious if a Sanger space plane type orbit would work? You get the X15 up high enough and let it bounce off of the atmosphere around the earth like the Sanger was supposed to do. I think this would count as an orbit if you went all the way around.

Not really. From what I recall, Sanger's projections for hypersonic lift to drag ratios proved wildly optimistic, as did his expectations about atmospheric heating. Between the two of those, skipping around the world is a very, very challenging concept.

 

[SpaceGeek]

First of all,

A Saegner style skipping isn't an orbit. It's not even a decaying orbit. An orbit is a ballistic trajectory that doesn't intersect the ground at any point (meaning you could theoretically orbit forever excluding drag and other gravitational effects). What saegner proposed is very different. His is a suborbital trajectory that, on reentry, uses it's aerodynamic properties and it's velocity to skip out of the atmosphere on another shorter suborbital trajectory. He repeats this over and over again and each time the arc is shorter and smaller. Eventually there isn't enough velocity/lift to bring the craft out of the atmosphere. At this point you begin a glide at an altitude of 50 km that descends to ground level.

So it's not an orbit, technically or functionally. The spacecraft would experience high gforces during the re-entry/skip out phase and would experience normal gravity during the glide phase. Free fall or Zero G would only occure while it's outide of the mesureable atmosphere. You also can't build space stations, assemble interplanetary spacecraft or deploy satellites in this kind of flight path. It also doesn't last very long. A 3-6 hours. It only gets you once around the world or halfway depending on whether you are flying at 6 km/s or 7 km/s. It's much better than a suborbital trajectory (which lasts 3-6 minutes in freefall).

Also the X-15 is incapable of performing a skipping trajectory for very far. Even the upgraded X-15A3 is oly able to achieve mach 8. Maybe by combining it with the XB-70 Valkyrie we could see Mach 11 but that's still short of the Mach 18 needed to get halfway around the world and the Mach 21 needed for a full circular orbit. I do think if we sticked with the X-15 program we would certainly have routine suborbital space tourism decades early. Maybe low cost orbital space tourism would be achieved but I'm not sure of that.

 

[Michel Van]

They also have to take off, pilot and land in the aerospacecraft. As I recall, Cosmonauts ejected from the Vostok capsules and landed via parachute. That would mean, legally speaking, John Glenn would be the first man in orbit.

the Irony: NNA proposed a Orbital version of X-15 launch on rocket
after one orbit, this X-15 reenters into atmosphere direction gulf of mexico were the pilot ejected from the plane, land with parachute were he is recovered by US navy...

 

[Mike Stearns]

the Irony: NNA proposed a Orbital version of X-15 launch on rocket

That thought actually occured to me. The X-15 was a proven vehicle and already partially adapted for spaceflight. Building a X-15 derived spacecraft, mounting it on a rocket and shooting into orbit should be pretty straightforward.

 

[SpaceGeek]

Yes!

Scenerio:
X-15B launches on a spaceflight before Vostok 1. The Soviet Union claims this doesn't count as the Americans used ejector seats and hence Yuri Gagarin is really the first man in space/orbit since he didn't use a ejector seat (so we are told).

1989 comes along and the Americans get to say to the Russian "Ha, there flight wan't legit becaue they used ejector seat, wait" [facepalm after they realized their irony/hipocracy]. Hence neither's flight "legally counted".

No matter how you slice it this requirement that the pilot land in his capsule for the record to count is insanse. Yuri Gagarin and Vostok-1 were the first human spaceflights, period. Nobody disputes this. If I've been to the Moon but had to parachut the last 10 km, I've still been to the Moon! It's just a relic from the time when "flight" neccesarily meant Aeroplanes or Balloons. Although even then I think it was crazy. If I've been to 129,000 feet, I've been to 129,000 feet! even if I did skydive all the way down.

 

[Riain]

IIRC the early X15s didn't have the engine of the later ones, thus didn't have the performance, so when was the first XLR99 flight?

Also both the USAF and FIA draw an arbitrary line for 'space' which falls well, well short of orbital altitudes, so even if the X15 got to 67 miles before Yuri Gagarin I don't think people would be as impressed as they would be with Gagarin's feat.

 

[Michel Van]

thé Fédération Aéronautique Internationale (FAI) is for moment not available to comment that, SpaceGeek :roll eyes:

On Orbital X-15B the NAA planed to 'stripped' X-15A with an empty mass of 4500 kg. (also landing gear out ?)
and equipped with heat shield of beryllium oxide and Rene 41 alloy.
as Booster 4 x G-26 NAA Navaho booster stages plus the X-15B's own XLR-99 engine.
to get the X-15B in single 120 x 75 km orbit so no retrorocket was needed
NAA expected that a first manned orbital flight could be achieved 30 months after a go-ahead at a cost of $ 120 million in 1958

now there alternate design with 4 Titan I rocket jointed together with central Titan I has X-15B on top,

( don't ask about staging this thing, i not even know if this real or just joke of model maker )
or use a Saturn I to launch it.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

If the US went for a 50 mile or even 100km record in an airplane, and then the Soviets put a man in orbit, everyone is going to ignore the X15 flight, and the FAI sets rules for 'space' that are higher than otl.

Who remembers Carpenter? Space geeks, and no one else.


BTW, what were the guys behind the x15b smoking? Sticking an expensive, heavy plane on top of non-man-rated boosters, and the throwing everything away!?!? By the time you engineered all that rube goldberg contraption together, you could have designed and launched a Mercury capsule.