Hello everyone! My first thread on this forum, I was considering something about sea mammals or sane Hitler (had a lot of those last week),
but then decided to just ask a question for which I can't seem to find to many foreign sources.
So I came across this quote over the weekend:
Otto Landsberg January 1919: „Preußen hat seine Stellung mit dem Schwert erobert und dieses Schwert ist zerbrochen. Wenn Deutschland leben soll, muss Preußen in seiner bisherigen Gestalt sterben.“
roughly: "Prussia has conquered its position with the sword, this sword is now broken. For Germany to live, Prussia, in its current form, has to die".
And there were a lot of people in favor of the creation of smaller indepentent federal states at the expense of Prussia, among them was Friedrich Ebert.
In the end the idea failed because of bavarians fearing the same could happen to them (and voted against it) and at state level the thought prevailed that a independent Rhine Province would also be the first step towards a split from Germany.
Now for some of my questions:
What was the big difference between WW1 and WW2, in the sense that after the later the german federal states were balanced against each other in favour of not having one dominant state. From what I learned back in school (so pls tell me if this is wrong) during WW1 the Entente among other things kind of fought against "Prussian Militarism" so could a complete dismantling of Prussia be supported by France and the UK?
OTL Germany only lost Prussian territories after WW1 so some of that seems to be true.
What are the chances of Germany losing all of East , and almost all of West Prussia (including Danzig) to Poland during peace negotiations?
I know national selfdetermination was in the 14-Points but in regards to Germans this was only sometimes considered OTL and also the final peace treaties (Austria and Germany) were only very loosely based on them. Some people will say that ethnic cleansing (displacement) was not common before WW2 but I feel like somekind of deal between West and South Germans and France could be struck, which could then be presented to the respective populations as somekind of just fate for those "warmongering Prussians". Prussia would then be split with none of the resulting states carrying the name Prussia. (Brandenburg, Pommern... etc.)
So I'm talking about some kind of anti-prussian sentiment throughout Germany. Maybe a revolution earlier during the war by anti prussian forces?
What kind of POD would be needed for something like that? Or am I just delusional?
And what would happen to such a postwar Germany?
Economical? More territory lost, but maybe the whole off Silesia kept as an indepentent federal state? West and East Prussia produced alot of Germanys food supply.
Populationwise? There were roughly a bit more than three million Germans living in those territorries. How fast would they immigrate to Germany?
Cultural? How strong would German-revanchism be? Maybe a different Stab in the back myth?
I am happy for any replies on any of the above stated questions or statements. Also if you just happen to have some sources for me that would be great, student holidays are coming up and I might just have time to do some reading up on this subject should it prove interesting.
but then decided to just ask a question for which I can't seem to find to many foreign sources.
So I came across this quote over the weekend:
Otto Landsberg January 1919: „Preußen hat seine Stellung mit dem Schwert erobert und dieses Schwert ist zerbrochen. Wenn Deutschland leben soll, muss Preußen in seiner bisherigen Gestalt sterben.“
roughly: "Prussia has conquered its position with the sword, this sword is now broken. For Germany to live, Prussia, in its current form, has to die".
And there were a lot of people in favor of the creation of smaller indepentent federal states at the expense of Prussia, among them was Friedrich Ebert.
In the end the idea failed because of bavarians fearing the same could happen to them (and voted against it) and at state level the thought prevailed that a independent Rhine Province would also be the first step towards a split from Germany.
Now for some of my questions:
What was the big difference between WW1 and WW2, in the sense that after the later the german federal states were balanced against each other in favour of not having one dominant state. From what I learned back in school (so pls tell me if this is wrong) during WW1 the Entente among other things kind of fought against "Prussian Militarism" so could a complete dismantling of Prussia be supported by France and the UK?
OTL Germany only lost Prussian territories after WW1 so some of that seems to be true.
What are the chances of Germany losing all of East , and almost all of West Prussia (including Danzig) to Poland during peace negotiations?
I know national selfdetermination was in the 14-Points but in regards to Germans this was only sometimes considered OTL and also the final peace treaties (Austria and Germany) were only very loosely based on them. Some people will say that ethnic cleansing (displacement) was not common before WW2 but I feel like somekind of deal between West and South Germans and France could be struck, which could then be presented to the respective populations as somekind of just fate for those "warmongering Prussians". Prussia would then be split with none of the resulting states carrying the name Prussia. (Brandenburg, Pommern... etc.)
So I'm talking about some kind of anti-prussian sentiment throughout Germany. Maybe a revolution earlier during the war by anti prussian forces?
What kind of POD would be needed for something like that? Or am I just delusional?
And what would happen to such a postwar Germany?
Economical? More territory lost, but maybe the whole off Silesia kept as an indepentent federal state? West and East Prussia produced alot of Germanys food supply.
Populationwise? There were roughly a bit more than three million Germans living in those territorries. How fast would they immigrate to Germany?
Cultural? How strong would German-revanchism be? Maybe a different Stab in the back myth?
I am happy for any replies on any of the above stated questions or statements. Also if you just happen to have some sources for me that would be great, student holidays are coming up and I might just have time to do some reading up on this subject should it prove interesting.