OOC: I meant Mongke. I typed Hulagu, who died after Mongke did, by accident when I was looking up the Il Khanate, and the post has been edited accordingly, although you should probably have looked at the date (1259) and realized that I made a mistake. Kublai and his successor, Temur, might have had some influence over the others, but the fact that there was a succession dispute between Kublai and Ariq Boke from 1260-4 in the east, simultaneously along with a civil war between Berke and Hulagu during 1262 in the west, essentially demonstrated that the Mongols were no longer unified. In other words, although the Mongols might have remained generally united under a single ruler even after 1259, various military conflicts within the empire, beginning in 1260, suggests that political unity essentially ceased to exist.
DBWI the Mongolic Tribes made a giant empire?
- Thread starter Emperor Julian
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OOC: I meant Mongke. I typed Hulagu, who died after Mongke did, by accident when I was looking up the Il Khanate, and the post has been edited accordingly, although you should probably have looked at the date (1259) and realized that I made a mistake. Kublai and his successor, Temur, might have had some influence over the others, but the fact that there was a succession dispute between Kublai and Ariq Boke from 1260-4 in the east, simultaneously along with a civil war between Berke and Hulagu during 1262 in the west, essentially demonstrated that the Mongols were no longer unified. In other words, although the Mongols might have remained generally united under a single ruler even after 1259, various military conflicts within the empire, beginning in 1260, suggests that political unity essentially ceased to exist.
OOC: Other than the Song Chinese parts, I believe most of the area of that map had been conquered by the death of Mongke.
Am I the only one here that remembers the Arab Empire of the 8th Century? If the Muslims could create an empire of equal (if not greater size) working from a southern desert, why not the Mongolics?
I guess what you'd need in that case would be a "Prophet Khan." All I know of the time is that the Mongolics were a hodge podge of Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, and shamanists. So you'd probably have a Khan build a religion using aspects of all four religions (certainly an interesting one). Then, just like the Arab armies, they can overrun all their competitors in the north and take over China within that first generation. The next two generations would be spent bringing the Empire west. I don't think it'd last very long though. Empires of that size never do.
Still, the religion would remain after the Prophet Khan's successors burn the temples and mosques of the old religions. No matter how quickly the Empire fell, it'd change the demographics of China forever.
I guess what you'd need in that case would be a "Prophet Khan." All I know of the time is that the Mongolics were a hodge podge of Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, and shamanists. So you'd probably have a Khan build a religion using aspects of all four religions (certainly an interesting one). Then, just like the Arab armies, they can overrun all their competitors in the north and take over China within that first generation. The next two generations would be spent bringing the Empire west. I don't think it'd last very long though. Empires of that size never do.
Still, the religion would remain after the Prophet Khan's successors burn the temples and mosques of the old religions. No matter how quickly the Empire fell, it'd change the demographics of China forever.
Julian: Mongols? That's about the most random wank I can think of. Are you from Molgolland?
DanMcCollum: I think what Zuvarq was referring to was the influence China had on the western kingdoms over the past 800 years, not the occupation. Between you and me, I don't think they should have occupied England either. England was plenty civilized by the 20th century and could have been trusted to govern itself.
DanMcCollum: I think what Zuvarq was referring to was the influence China had on the western kingdoms over the past 800 years, not the occupation. Between you and me, I don't think they should have occupied England either. England was plenty civilized by the 20th century and could have been trusted to govern itself.
OOC: True, although my point was that the division was complete by 1259, and the empire had originally began to splinter before then. Both the Chagatai Khanate and the Golden Horde had been established before 1240, although the Il Khanate was founded in 1256. Although the other rulers generally remained loyal to Ogodei, they also gradually began to exert more control over their own regions, until civil wars and Kublai's effective loss of control over all of the domains permanently fragmented the empire.
Why ever not? Gee, I dunno, maybe because China never got dragged to the brink of extinction by war after costly war the way the Rhomans and Persians were in the 600's. That's what would need imitation for this scenario to work. By the time Muslims came surging out of Arabia, everyone in the neighborhood was dead on their feet. Someone could possibly come up with some roughly analogous situation, but it's not like China has or has ever had any nearby peer competitors on the order of Sassanian Persia. The two situations are not at all comparable.
Hm... I see what you're saying.
Ok, maybe we go with an earlier POD and have a Tibetan Empire precede the Mongolic one. It wouldn't take too much, just a stronger extension of the Tibetan Empire that already existed. So maybe just a little push, say vassalization of a few Mongolic tribes, the spread of Tibetan Buddhism to those tribes.
Plus or minus a few centuries, Tibet and China beat each other a la Rhom and Persia. After the situation settles, a resurgent Buddhist "Prophet" Khan comes to power and bam, Mongolic Empire conquers China.
Or just cause a few famines or a string of weak Emperors. That should set off one of the periodic dynastic transitions in China, which would be a prime opportunity for Mongols to invade.
Tibet just doesn't have the wealth or manpower to be a serious rival to a united China. Maaaybe Korea or Japan.
Tibet just doesn't have the wealth or manpower to be a serious rival to a united China. Maaaybe Korea or Japan.
OK, I'll reword that: a serious long-term rival. Tibet collapsed 400 years before our proposed POD. Compare to Rome and Persia, which had been strong enemies in various iterations for six hundred years. Tibet was powerful for 200 years. Unless you propose to somehow delay Tibet's rise to power for 400 years, I don't see how this works.
Keep Bengal and northern India in their Empire. Hold Chang'an for a longer period of time than a few years. Bam, seeds are planted for a Mandate of Heaven influence to take hold in Tibet along with a powerful population base in the souther part of the Empire. Give enough time and influence, the whole of Northern India might become Southern Tibet.
Speaking of all this, I'm glad I live in New England, out of reach of those watchful Chinese Imperial Police...
The Mandate of Heaven is nothing more than the rationalization of Chinese imperialism. It's not all that different from the Anoteroskalo of the ethnokoi Hellas. And everybody agrees that what happened to Italy and Anatolia was a crime, you guys intervened to stop it.
OOC: Anoteroskalo - privilege of the superior... somewhere in between lebensraum and manifest destiny.
Ethnokoi - abbreviation of ethno-koinonikism... a way to say national-socialism without using the current word used in greek for socialism, which is a loan.
Also, i have no knowledge of greek
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Maybe we could set up a mongul "empire" scavenged of another one. In arabia an army of Arabs int the 6th century got a strong foot hold in the middle east because the Rhomans and the Persians were exhausted fighting each other. let's say for a moment a strong kiev crusades farther and farther east till the turn south into the persians and somehow win the mongols cut into the middle and expand. everyone is too weak or in a terrible position to fight back so the mongols can get their "empire". granted this would fall almost within a generation if not sooner and then you have a power vacuum of short term empires that almost immediatly fall for a while but hey why not?
OOC:Yeah, Temujin either never existed, or failed to become any more significant than another random tribal leader. In any case, he's totally unknown to modern historians.
This could work, but I suspect you would end up with an empire that's more Indian or Bengali than Tibetan, given the fact that the most populous and wealthiest part of the Empire would be Bengal and northern India. That said, a Tibet that tries to seriously reintroduce Buddhism in northern India, beyond the insular Buddhist Bengal we had OTL, would be very interesting.
This is about as likely as the Lakota nomads of the Thulean Great Plains conquering Vinland, the Cahokian Confederacy, the Tlaxcalan Empire, and Fu-Sang within a generation. Utterly implausible. We're talking about steppe nomads, here; they hadn't made a real impact on settled Eurasia since Attila!
I seem to remember from my history class the name Seljuk, while that extent is totally ASB the fact remains steppe nomads played a big part in Eurasian history (even if they eventually settled down and assimilated into the larger Greek Speaking and Persian regions they controlled).