Culturally and Politically Unified North European Plain?

DominusNovus

The Romans were able to politically unite the Mediterranean Basin, and across most of Europe under their control, even beyond said basin, their culture and language were predominant.

Could anyone have done similar in Northern Europe at any point history? With the North and/or Baltic Seas serving as their Mare Nostrum?

Culturally, it would likely be a Germanic society of some sort, since most of the region in question is or was at some point Germanic. At the same time, the plain itself is a pretty vulnerable place from which to build an empire. Britain and/or Scandinavia are outside the plain, but well positioned nearby.
 

EnvarKadri

According to wikipedia this is the northern european plain
1621536426620.png


I guess it could be possible. You would need to avoid the stablishment of the kingdom of poland. The rest of the cultures there are germanic altho between danes and central germanics you have distint cultures even before the HRE. The dutch and the germans diverged at a later time IIRC so maybe that wont be too difficult to solve. Altho I feel the biggest problem here is that this plain doesnt seem to influnced much states formation and their borders in our history.
 
kasumigenx

kasumigenx

EnvarKadri said:
According to wikipedia this is the northern european plain
View attachment 652303

I guess it could be possible. You would need to avoid the stablishment of the kingdom of poland. The rest of the cultures there are germanic altho between danes and central germanics you have distint cultures even before the HRE. The dutch and the germans diverged at a later time IIRC so maybe that wont be too difficult to solve. Altho I feel the biggest problem here is that this plain doesnt seem to influnced much states formation and their borders in our history.
Click to expand...
A Pod to that would be Canute IV of Denmark surviving and have his son, Charles the Good inherit Denmark who ITTL inherited Flanders.
 

stevej713

I personally think that the most decisive source of political division in western Europe was the Treaty of Verdun. The Rhine River is a natural hub of trade with excellent access to the Atlantic Ocean, and the Low Countries has been one of the wealthiest regions in Europe since the Middle Ages, yet it has spent much of its history being fought over, culminating with the two World Wars. If the Frankish Empire was divided into North and South rather than East and West, northern Europe would have been much more likely to be dominated by a single state that would be vastly superior economically and demographically to its neighbors, similar to China.
 

Fabius Maximus

stevej713 said:
I personally think that the most decisive source of political division in western Europe was the Treaty of Verdun. The Rhine River is a natural hub of trade with excellent access to the Atlantic Ocean, and the Low Countries has been one of the wealthiest regions in Europe since the Middle Ages, yet it has spent much of its history being fought over, culminating with the two World Wars. If the Frankish Empire was divided into North and South rather than East and West, northern Europe would have been much more likely to be dominated by a single state that would be vastly superior economically and demographically to its neighbors, similar to China.
Click to expand...
Or even better, somehow get the Franks to abandon their system of partitive inheritance in favour of primogeniture or seniority. A Charlemagne-esque empire which wasn't racked by succession disputes every generation could easily end up expanding into OTL's Denmark and Poland.
 

Chercha

Don't know how plausible it is technologically, but if someone were to invent the heavy plough circa 500 BC, we could end up with a Hamburger Empire mimicking their Roman cousins (yes, that city was founded much later, but its position is too good for it not to be the capital of such an empire).
 

DominusNovus

Fabius Maximus said:
Or even better, somehow get the Franks to abandon their system of partitive inheritance in favour of primogeniture or seniority. A Charlemagne-esque empire which wasn't racked by succession disputes every generation could easily end up expanding into OTL's Denmark and Poland.
Click to expand...

Well that much is easy, just do what the Capetians did: appoint your son and heir as co-ruler (make sure to get buy-in from the nobility), and when you die, of course he just takes the remaining authority for himself. Do that for a couple generations, problem solved.
 

Kerney

Chercha said:
Don't know how plausible it is technologically, but if someone were to invent the heavy plough circa 500 BC, we could end up with a Hamburger Empire mimicking their Roman cousins (yes, that city was founded much later, but its position is too good for it not to be the capital of such an empire).
Click to expand...

So citizens would be ruled by a Burger King?
 

Gwyain

stevej713 said:
I personally think that the most decisive source of political division in western Europe was the Treaty of Verdun. The Rhine River is a natural hub of trade with excellent access to the Atlantic Ocean, and the Low Countries has been one of the wealthiest regions in Europe since the Middle Ages, yet it has spent much of its history being fought over, culminating with the two World Wars. If the Frankish Empire was divided into North and South rather than East and West, northern Europe would have been much more likely to be dominated by a single state that would be vastly superior economically and demographically to its neighbors, similar to China.
Click to expand...
Agreed 100%. Getting a division like Charlemagne's intended division in 806 (before Charles and Pepin died) would do exactly that proposed N-S division, and probably be better for each part as a whole. Personally, I'd put the future Poitou, Berry, and Burgundy in this (North) Frankia over Aquitaine, but it does the job very effectively still.
Carte_de_l%27empire_de_Charlemagne_apr%C3%A8s_le_partage_de_806.jpg
 
kasumigenx

kasumigenx

Gwyain said:
Agreed 100%. Getting a division like Charlemagne's intended division in 806 (before Charles and Pepin died) would do exactly that proposed N-S division, and probably be better for each part as a whole. Personally, I'd put the future Poitou, Berry, and Burgundy in this (North) Frankia over Aquitaine, but it does the job very effectively still.
Carte_de_l%27empire_de_Charlemagne_apr%C3%A8s_le_partage_de_806.jpg
Click to expand...
Saintonge and Angouleme are actually Occitan prior to the HYW and Berry and Poitou were transitional cases.
 
Nyegosh

Nyegosh

I mentioned this in an "European China" thread - you need heavy/deep ploughs in order to get a population dense enough to allow centralization.
 

Deleted member 109224

I've found this map online. Brandenburg-Sweden which manages to establish a Protestant League rivaling the Holy Roman Empire could perhaps satisfy this criteria.

1621609179891.png


Otherwise, doesn't the North German Federation sort of satisfy this criteria?
 
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DominusNovus

Jackson Lennock said:
I've found this map online. Brandenburg-Sweden which manages to establish a Protestant League rivaling the Holy Roman Empire could perhaps satisfy this criteria.

View attachment 652494

Otherwise, doesn't the North German Federation sort of satisfy this criteria?
Click to expand...

There was not much political unification outside of where the German populations already were, and no cultural unification (aside from diminishing the difference between different German populations).
 

Otto Kretschmer

Banned
a HRE that unifies in the Middle Ages to the same degree as France could help the Teutonic Order in its wars against Poland. Then Poland is royally screwed.
 
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