Cool Potential Domestications

[DG Valdron]

A dog can do it. Only problem is that wolverines are solitary animals, and it typically seems like social mammals are domesticable, and most solitary ones (cats being the exception) are not.

Cats are actually fairly social animals. Any farmer can tell you about barnyard cats and sociability.

Dogs tend to be on the omnivory side of carnivory. Their diets are non-specialized compared to cats who in the wild eat a narrow range of prey. Basically, they're everywhere from big game hunters, to small prey, to scavengers and will even munch on some vegetation. The broad dietary range of canines may have been key to human habituation. The theory is that early dogs learned to follow humans and chow down on their garbage and leavings. Because dogs ate a more diverse range of meat and lower quality meat/leavings, and because human food processing extended the range of things a dog could eat, they fit into human society very well.

 

[Monte-Cristo]

This mostly applies to foxes, and they are more social than cats: they form permanent couples (or a male and a harem when food is abundant), the male brings food to the cubs, the young remain with their parents to assist in caring for new kits... I suspect foxes were not domesticated because Man already had cats as verminators, and foxes became 'the enemy' of poultry farmers in the same way as (wild) dogs = wolves became the enemy of shepherds.

 

[Circonflexe]

* Pets? - An incredibly expensive and dangerous pet, not widespread. Generally, I don't see a lot of precedent for sustained pet domestication.


I'm not saying 'No', but I am suggesting we'd have to really work out some history to get it.

This is why I was suggesting some kind of royal menagerie. Imagine that some XVIIth century Elector of Brandenburg puts the Berlin Bear on his coat of arms, instead of the Hohenzollern Eagle, and raises bears.

The fact that this is a difficult pet becomes an advantage when all you intend to do is to show off and impress your German neighbours... Since the bear was a quite widespread symbol in Germany (this comes from pre-Christian times; at least Bern and Berlin have kept it in their names), you could easily imagine the various princelings competing for bear menageries, bears being sent as dowries for royal weddings, etc. (IOTL there was a lot of competition for the best castle/kapellemeister/...) And when some German princess marries abroad, she takes a few bears with her, but she will select the more teddy-bear-like.

There are easily enough princelings in Germany to maintain a sustainable breeding population of bears, and this is *slightly* less cliché than bear cavalry (ursery?)

 

[DG Valdron]

This is why I was suggesting some kind of royal menagerie. Imagine that some XVIIth century Elector of Brandenburg puts the Berlin Bear on his coat of arms, instead of the Hohenzollern Eagle, and raises bears.

Well, that doesn't necessarily lead to much. People put gryphons on their coat of arms, and unicorns and lions, it doesn't necessarily lead to raising these animals. Or even to these animals existing.

I'm dubious about the whole Royal Menagerie thing. There doesn't seem to be the constancy or the utility.

Generally, a domesticated animal is one that has an enduring economic usefulness for some significant purpose - labour/draft/pack, guards, shepherds or verminators, eggs, wool, meat, leather, fur etc.

It's that inherent economic role which transcends fashion or politics. Kings and Dynasties may rise and fall, but chickens are always valued for eggs. So you always have to ask .... what does the animal do, or what does the animal produce, that is useful to a society.

It gets more complicated - if another animal can do the job better, then that domesticate loses its niche. We know, for instance, that in North America, some dogs were used for wool. Well, that economic utility of dogs doesn't survive sheep coming into fashion.

Or turn it on its head - cattle and horses are the all purpose draft/labour domesticate. So when do we have other labour domesticates? They show up in places where cattle and horses weren't available - Llama's in the Andes. Or in places where cattle and horses weren't viable - Cattle in the desert, reindeer in the subarctic.

So you have to figure out a time or a place where the economic utility of your prospective domesticate is viable.

When I did a Bear Cavalry timeline, I didn't have people just start riding bears. I posited an economic utility for black bears - essentially as substitutes for pork and pigs in Iceland during the little ice age, when it was cheaper to raise bears than pigs.

The fact that this is a difficult pet becomes an advantage when all you intend to do is to show off and impress your German neighbours... Since the bear was a quite widespread symbol in Germany (this comes from pre-Christian times; at least Bern and Berlin have kept it in their names), you could easily imagine the various princelings competing for bear menageries, bears being sent as dowries for royal weddings, etc. (IOTL there was a lot of competition for the best castle/kapellemeister/...) And when some German princess marries abroad, she takes a few bears with her, but she will select the more teddy-bear-like.

It's an incredibly expensive status animal. Mind you, there is some precedent with prize horses. But the economic utility of horses is already established.

There are easily enough princelings in Germany to maintain a sustainable breeding population of bears, and this is *slightly* less cliché than bear cavalry (ursery?)

But it's basically a fashion. How long does fashion last? That's why I keep emphasizing finding an economic rationale.

 

[Danbensen]

I remember someone (Diamond) saying that the closest people have ever gotten to domesticating bears is the Ainu bear adoption thing (which ends up with the bear dead after it goes through puberty and becomes dangerous).

Leads me to think what might have happened had the Ainu had contact with...someone...who might have given them access to black bears.

 

[DG Valdron]

I remember someone (Diamond) saying that the closest people have ever gotten to domesticating bears is the Ainu bear adoption thing (which ends up with the bear dead after it goes through puberty and becomes dangerous).

Leads me to think what might have happened had the Ainu had contact with...someone...who might have given them access to black bears.

The Ainu adopted bears? Cool. Bears and particularly bear cubs adopted as pets are found through Europe and Scandinavia, and among American Indians. It's a fairly widespread thing.

On the whole, Black Bears are better candidates for domestication than Brown Bears. Less aggressive, much more versatile behaviour, more diverse diet.

 

[Circonflexe]

Oooh, here's a new, fun one:

octopuses.

+ Short life cycle (~ one year).
+ Clever animal.
+ Despite being aquatic, some live in quite shallow waters.
+ Not too picky diet...
- but not likely to scavenge human remains.
- Seems hard to breed in captivity.

They might be trained to... forage for mussels?

 

[Danbensen]

Oh man! I want a domesticated octopus timeline! Bred by the Mycenaeans to collect pearls, octopuses become more loyal and intelligent. They communicate with their human trainers with hand signals or pictorial instructions. Archimedes trains one to use a drill and octopus sappers are used against the Roman navy! Soon the Greek-speaking Thalassocracy controls the whole Mediterranean! A colony on the Canary islands is named Atlantis! But then disaster! The Tentacular Revolt!

 

[mojojojo]

Oh man! I want a domesticated octopus timeline! Bred by the Mycenaeans to collect pearls, octopuses become more loyal and intelligent. They communicate with their human trainers with hand signals or pictorial instructions. Archimedes trains one to use a drill and octopus sappers are used against the Roman navy! Soon the Greek-speaking Thalassocracy controls the whole Mediterranean! A colony on the Canary islands is named Atlantis! But then disaster! The Tentacular Revolt!

IIRC someone did a TL with intelligent octopi, whoes interactions with humanity spur the development of a written language thousands of years earlier than in OTL

 

[mojojojo]

The Ainu adopted bears? Cool. Bears and particularly bear cubs adopted as pets are found through Europe and Scandinavia, and among American Indians. It's a fairly widespread thing.

Did any South American Indians do so with spectacled bears?

 

[ArKhan]

Here's one for you, the Romans adopt Carthage's war elephant tactics. Over time they even develop a breed of elephant that can survive the European winter. Eventually these become established throughout the empire. After the Empire falls, the war elephant strategy is adopted by Medieval Europe. When the Spanish, or whoever discover the new world, they reintroduce elephants as well as horses to the Americas. Herds of feral horses and elephants become a common sight on the American Plains by the 19th century.

 

[Neirdak]

I could see elephants being massively used in Europe (or elsewhere) for riot control and as draft animals. You can easily use an elephant to move heavy objects and even use them to plough fields.

As World War One raged, the military purchased most of England's horses and sent them to the Western Front. Many farmers and traders had to find alternative beasts of burden, but none more exotic than elephants.

Source : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-24745705



His Majesty Royal Elephant RCU (riot control unit) moves to position during the Great Riot of London. The Elephants usely moved without equipment and were "dressed" on the spot with heavy armor. The first use of "Riot Elephants" happened in India, during the Indian Rebellion of 1857, when a British officier decided to charge a mob of rebels with unarmored draft elephants belonging to the Royal Regiment of Artillery.

One of the most famous souvenir of London, the police elephant called Max, symbol of the Constabulary elephants patrols. Max is the hero of one of the most viewed Children's television series in the Commonwealth "Max the justice elephant".

Drawing of Max, his colleague and brother Tim and Skippy the Police Kangaroo :

The use of domesticated "public service" Elephants isn't restrained to the British Commonwealth. The introduction of Elephants from Canada to USA developed a new task for them, the ranch elephants. Those elephants were popularized in the US audience, by the well-known book : The Cowboy and his elephant.

http://www.indiebound.org/book/9780312304065

The other utilizations of domesticated elephants around the world include : forestry, ranger patrols, construction, cattle protection, disaster management, execution (in Saudi Arabia), pet animals, military use and many more ...

I even think it could be a nice way to avoid the extinction of those beautiful, clever and massive animals. We just need to decrease the price of their tusks and to make them profitable as domesticated animals. Perhaps we could even automatically harvest their tusks (under anesthesia) and sell them openly to decrease the price of smuggled ivory. With a small selling price and regular offer, savage elephants wouldn't be killed anymore.

 

[Deleted member 67076]

Can cheetah's be domesticated?

 

[twovultures]

Can cheetah's be domesticated?

Not with their OTL reproductive habits, which require a lot of open space and a long time of courtship to trigger ovulation in the female.

If Cheetahs could breed as easily as, say, domestic housecats, they could very well have been domesticated. While not having as flexible a diet as dogs, they could be useful hunting companions, and by the standards of big cats they are eminently tamable and relatively safe to be around when tamed.

 

[DG Valdron]

Domesticated Octopi? I missed that altogether. Kind of interesting. Let me kick it around.

Regarding domesticated bears, I refer all and sundry to my 'Bear Cavalry' timeline, now completed.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=277501

 

[32Greygoose]

The only problem with domesticated elephants (and probley why they have not been widely), they have a gestation period of over two years, and three to five years inbetween birth and conception!
Also with elephants taking up a large amount of room and requiring lots of resources to take care of (plus being socially herd animals and wanting companionship of 5 to 15 others at the least) you don't have a very high yield of offspring before you lose one to old age.

 

[Swordman]

Glyptodonts, because I want a four-ton armadillo with a huge-ass mace for a tail.....

Mike Garrity

 

[katchen]

Well, that doesn't necessarily lead to much. People put gryphons on their coat of arms, and unicorns and lions, it doesn't necessarily lead to raising these animals. Or even to these animals existing.

I'm dubious about the whole Royal Menagerie thing. There doesn't seem to be the constancy or the utility.

Generally, a domesticated animal is one that has an enduring economic usefulness for some significant purpose - labour/draft/pack, guards, shepherds or verminators, eggs, wool, meat, leather, fur etc.

It's that inherent economic role which transcends fashion or politics. Kings and Dynasties may rise and fall, but chickens are always valued for eggs. So you always have to ask .... what does the animal do, or what does the animal produce, that is useful to a society.

It gets more complicated - if another animal can do the job better, then that domesticate loses its niche. We know, for instance, that in North America, some dogs were used for wool. Well, that economic utility of dogs doesn't survive sheep coming into fashion.

Or turn it on its head - cattle and horses are the all purpose draft/labour domesticate. So when do we have other labour domesticates? They show up in places where cattle and horses weren't available - Llama's in the Andes. Or in places where cattle and horses weren't viable - Cattle in the desert, reindeer in the subarctic.

So you have to figure out a time or a place where the economic utility of your prospective domesticate is viable.

When I did a Bear Cavalry timeline, I didn't have people just start riding bears. I posited an economic utility for black bears - essentially as substitutes for pork and pigs in Iceland during the little ice age, when it was cheaper to raise bears than pigs.




It's an incredibly expensive status animal. Mind you, there is some precedent with prize horses. But the economic utility of horses is already established.



But it's basically a fashion. How long does fashion last? That's why I keep emphasizing finding an economic rationale.

I doubt raising bears for food would work. From what I have read, bears taste terrible.

 

[katchen]

I could see elephants being massively used in Europe (or elsewhere) for riot control and as draft animals. You can easily use an elephant to move heavy objects and even use them to plough fields.

Source : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-24745705



His Majesty Royal Elephant RCU (riot control unit) moves to position during the Great Riot of London. The Elephants usely moved without equipment and were "dressed" on the spot with heavy armor. The first use of "Riot Elephants" happened in India, during the Indian Rebellion of 1857, when a British officier decided to charge a mob of rebels with unarmored draft elephants belonging to the Royal Regiment of Artillery.

One of the most famous souvenir of London, the police elephant called Max, symbol of the Constabulary elephants patrols. Max is the hero of one of the most viewed Children's television series in the Commonwealth "Max the justice elephant".

Drawing of Max, his colleague and brother Tim and Skippy the Police Kangaroo :

The use of domesticated "public service" Elephants isn't restrained to the British Commonwealth. The introduction of Elephants from Canada to USA developed a new task for them, the ranch elephants. Those elephants were popularized in the US audience, by the well-known book : The Cowboy and his elephant.

http://www.indiebound.org/book/9780312304065

The other utilizations of domesticated elephants around the world include : forestry, ranger patrols, construction, cattle protection, disaster management, execution (in Saudi Arabia), pet animals, military use and many more ...

I even think it could be a nice way to avoid the extinction of those beautiful, clever and massive animals. We just need to decrease the price of their tusks and to make them profitable as domesticated animals. Perhaps we could even automatically harvest their tusks (under anesthesia) and sell them openly to decrease the price of smuggled ivory. With a small selling price and regular offer, savage elephants wouldn't be killed anymore.

I think the use of elephants on ranches is a natural that should have caught on and in a TL in which Spain reached India because Iberia was united, probably would have caught on because elephants (and camels, both dromedary and Bactrian) would have been introduced to Spain and Mexico and South America as part of the Columbian exchange. Elephants are obviously much smarter than horses and just as obviously, much larger than cattle. Which means that elephants can be trained to intimidate cattle, by bumping against cows, nudging the cow with a tusk or slapping the cow with it's trunk or even trumpeting at it---something a horse cannot get away with, but much the way a sheep dog controls sheep. Elephants can be easily trained to cut cows out of a herd or even to flip a cow or a calf over and pin it with one foot so that the cow hand can brand it. In fact, showing dominance over another animal is something an elephant enjoys And in a place like Africa or South America, they can also deter attacks by predators like cougar, jaguar, leopard, hyena or even lions,( though a pride of lions or a pack of hyena can team up to kill an elephant). Elephants (Asian) would be perfect for ranches in places like Brazil or the Venezuelan Llanos or Colombia or Australia or South Texas or South Africa or the African Sahel. Cold weather would require elephants to wear winter clothing--even furs and leather boots in extreme places like Siberia.

 

[Tocomocho]

Oooh, here's a new, fun one:

octopuses.

+ Short life cycle (~ one year).
+ Clever animal.
+ Despite being aquatic, some live in quite shallow waters.
+ Not too picky diet...
- but not likely to scavenge human remains.
- Seems hard to breed in captivity.

- Breeding triggers death.

- If they aren't allowed to breed (usually in their first year) they die in the third year or so anyway. Common octopi at least - IIRC.