Communist France in WW2

Thande

Donor
Someone with better knowledge of the 1920s and 1930s than me will have to think up a specific POD, but: WI France, by say 1934, is a one-party Communist state? Whether it reaches this path by democratic election or revolution (I think a worse Depression might play a part) this throws a spanner in the works for the whole leadup to WW2.

For one, it means that Soviet Russia is no longer the sole edifice and symbol of Communism in the world. This could go either way in Britain, the US, etc.: either "we can't link this with the old Russia-Is-The-Implacable-Foe threat, so Communism gets more sympathy, or "it could happen here! It has happened in a democratic Western country!", so Communism is feared more. Also, it seems quite likely that the Communist French government wouldn't see eye to eye with Stalin, so now we could see real competing visions of the global proletarian revolution again rather than a single dominating view rooted firmly in Moscow.

Secondly, if the Spanish Civil War still happens, a Communist victory is virtually assured - although it would be interesting whether the resulting government would look more towards France or the USSR.

Thirdly, it is interesting to speculate what would happen to the French colonial empire - particularly if the Communists come to power in France through revolution.

Fourthly, this makes it likely that, if the Rome-Berlin axis still forms, the Axis will be opposed from the start by both the USSR and France, with Britain and the USA probably watching from the sidelines and hoping both sets of unpleasant ideologues sides slaughter each other. Perhaps we could see authoriatarian Poland become an Axis ally rather than an immediate battlefield (perhaps conceding Danzig and the Corridor to Germany in exchange for Czech territory and some Soviet land after any future war?)

Comments?
 
Could become an interesting war... France, Russia and Spain against Germany, Italy and Poland (supported by Britain and the US - who at the same time have to fight against Japan). Since the French might strike against the fascists ASAP,they've got a good chance for winning. Unless they're as stupid as OTL Communists and think "fascism is the last development of Capitalism, revolution has to come every moment!".
 

Thande

Donor
Max Sinister said:
Could become an interesting war... France, Russia and Spain against Germany, Italy and Poland (supported by Britain and the US - who at the same time have to fight against Japan). Since the French might strike against the fascists ASAP,they've got a good chance for winning. Unless they're as stupid as OTL Communists and think "fascism is the last development of Capitalism, revolution has to come every moment!".

That's what I was thinking. I'm surprised this doesn't seem to have been done before. If I knew more about the period, I'd attempt a timeline.
 

Thande

Donor
This is how I see Europe on the eve of war (the situation in Eastern Europe is somewhat arbitrary):

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Thande

Donor
Reflecting on this scenario, it occurs to me that there is no obvious victor for the ensuing war between the Communist and fascist countries - it seems to me that it could go either way, given that the fascist states in Eastern Europe are press-ganged and wobbly allies for Germany and Italy. Any thoughts?
 

Thande

Donor
Imajin said:
Might the Italians hand over most of Morocco to Fascist Spain?

Yeah, on reflection that seems likely.

Here's a provisional worldmap (same date as Europe map):

Communist France.gif
 
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Why is Spanish Guinea a neutral looking towards Britain? Did it achieve early independence in this scenario? Also, what happened to Spanish Morocco, Ifni, Rio de Oro, and Spanish Sahara? Unless, Spain occupied Morocco, and now the Fascist Spanish are based there...
 
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Thande said:
Yeah, on reflection that seems likely.

Here's a provisional worldmap (same date as Europe map):
I bet Britain wouldn't mind that empire, the cost of upkeep notwithstanding.
 
Makes WWI really simple!

France goes communist in 1871, and in 1914, everyone allows the Germans to overrun France. The Belgians INVITE the Germans to take passage through provided they do it quickly and Great Britain sits on the sidelines leading the cheering section! Tsarist Russia does NOT have an alliance with france and the Russians and Austrians diplomaticlly reach agreement over Serbia.

France is overrun, again, in six weeks! EVERYONE is happy, except perhaps some french "true believers"!
 
JLCook said:
France goes communist in 1871, and in 1914, everyone allows the Germans to overrun France. The Belgians INVITE the Germans to take passage through provided they do it quickly and Great Britain sits on the sidelines leading the cheering section! Tsarist Russia does NOT have an alliance with france and the Russians and Austrians diplomaticlly reach agreement over Serbia.

France is overrun, again, in six weeks! EVERYONE is happy, except perhaps some french "true believers"!
And, maybe Belgium gets some French land?

Actually, I don't think your scenario would have ever gotten to that point...
 
Wendell said:
I'd expect France to lose as much if not more than it loses here.
At that point why? I'd suspect they'd lose as much as they did when they became the thrid Republic if that happend, and that is the foreign colonies remain loyal after such a point.
 
Othniel said:
At that point why? I'd suspect they'd lose as much as they did when they became the thrid Republic if that happend, and that is the foreign colonies remain loyal after such a point.
In 1871? People would have feared Communism in OTL like they had before. Besides, the last time France had a violent revolution...
 
Wendell said:
In 1871? People would have feared Communism in OTL like they had before. Besides, the last time France had a violent revolution...
It was 1871, just like OTL. Britian might have panicked but at this point it was untried, unattempted since 1848. Something tells me that a nation like France that Stalinism and Leninism wouldn't pan out due to the need for colonialism. In the end it would be a few idealists from the Paris Commune leading them for a while, France weakened in Foreign Diplomacy, and prehaps strengthened in internal. Potentially a Fabian state.
 
Othniel said:
It was 1871, just like OTL. Britian might have panicked but at this point it was untried, unattempted since 1848. Something tells me that a nation like France that Stalinism and Leninism wouldn't pan out due to the need for colonialism. In the end it would be a few idealists from the Paris Commune leading them for a while, France weakened in Foreign Diplomacy, and prehaps strengthened in internal. Potentially a Fabian state.
I don't think a Communist France would/could keep its few colonies at that point, except for maybe those in the New World.
 
Wendell said:
I don't think a Communist France would/could keep its few colonies at that point, except for maybe those in the New World.
At this point I can only see them losing the Future on Morrocco, and Indochina. Great Britian isn't going to declare war on an extremely weak France at this point, nor will Italy or Spain. I don't see anybody willing to humilate France even more at this point bcause they could certainly spark something more Napoleonic if not left alone. Not Britian, not Italy and not Spain will touch the French colonies as of 1871. Name one nation they did that to during the 1880s that had just lost a major war? What nations are vultures at this point?
 
Basically it puts France into the postion of Proto-Fascist Portugal in terms of power....and letting them keep their current claims while extenting the still open land to more parties.
 
You guys are forgetting that Communism is by nature anti-imperalist, at least in rhetoric.

Chances are pretty high that any sizable colonies France has will be devolved into republics within a new government, possibly without even french in the name (much as Russia was just one part of the soviet union). If we're talking about an autocratic communist state, certainly the new leaders will be picked by the French communist party, but instead of being occupied by french forces, there would be a purportedly transnational communist force in the colonies, etc.

I actually think in practice this would make any colonies France manages to hold at least slightly better off than in OTL, if only because there would be under a socialist system more emphasis on at least *some* industry being built in the former colonies (much as the Soviets built up the 'stans slightly), along with breaking up the power of the local elites giving openings in society that were not there prior.

That said, they're going to have a devil of a time holding onto Syria and Lebenon. I have to say it would likely be almost impossible, given a much more powerful and entrenched native elite than many of the other former French colonies. I'll have to mull over this.
 
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