Challenge: England/Scotland/Wales/Ireland part of Holy Roman Empire?
- Thread starter Ironstark
- Start date
Unlikely, though you could try having them be in personal union with a part of it, such as with the Prussia using Brandeburgs Electoral vote. You might also consider having the HRE continue expanding over the centuries as a sort of Christian alliance or simply continue going into France as it originally did. If it reaches Normandy then you would have the ruling class of the Irish, English, and Scottish for a time.Is there any way any of these nations (either independent or part of GB) could join the Holy Roman Empire? Maybe even become electors? Possibly Emperor?
Preferably after 1066 AD and around the 14th to 16th centuries but if you need to go earlier or later, thats fine
Derek Pullem
Donor
There is the tantalising but completely impossible idea of Henry VIII actually being elected HRE in 1519.
There are a couple of threads about it on the board
There are a couple of threads about it on the board
There was supposedly the offer to make the Elector of Saxony Holy Roman Emperor if he turned over Luther. Maybe if the Reformation started in Britain they could get the same offer?
As the Great British Hanoverians Kings were Electors as head of state in Hanover then it would in theory be possible after George I took the throne of GB.
Unfortunately by this time the HRE was on its last legs anyway. But how about the Prince Regent being awarded the title after the Congress of Vienna to try to revitalise the post? (Ok not likely, but it's all I can think of!)
Unfortunately by this time the HRE was on its last legs anyway. But how about the Prince Regent being awarded the title after the Congress of Vienna to try to revitalise the post? (Ok not likely, but it's all I can think of!)
IIRC wasn't England nominally considered a part of the Empire for a very brief period since Richard I had to make obedience/suck up to the Emperor during his captivity? I could of sworn I remember reading something about that although I can't for the life of me find the reference now.
That aside since they never even added Denmrk to the Empire you're going to need to either find some special circumstances or have a much more expansionary Empire. If you could keep France as a much more fragmented state with an elected King then perhaps those states slowly become part of the Empire and then England?
That aside since they never even added Denmrk to the Empire you're going to need to either find some special circumstances or have a much more expansionary Empire. If you could keep France as a much more fragmented state with an elected King then perhaps those states slowly become part of the Empire and then England?
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Mmm...I think there's a few people who seem to have the opinion that simply coming into Personal Union with a German state would be enough to annex a country to the HRE. I'm not sure why this idea is widespread, but I'm pretty sure it's nonsense. Even moreso, though, I think before throwing countries at the OP as an answer, you all first need to answer the question "why would England/Scotland/wherever actually want to join the HRE"? The problem here is that those countries have pretty much nothing to gain from joining, and they have a huge amount to lose - prestige, independence, and possibly even their royal titles. After all, if the HRE was really so happy-fun-joy to join, why didn't Hungary join it in the three hundred-odd years it was in Personal Union with Austria, or why didn't the UK join in the 120-odd years it was in Personal Union with the Electorate of Hanover? Simply because there was nothing to be gained in joining - and even more, because the Germans would likely to have rejected their entry. Outsider states weren't German and would have overpowered traditional German politics, issues and values. The Germans would be at risk of turning into second-rate citizens in their own country, especially considering how disparate and divided Germany was compared to the likes of the British states.
With all due respect, this is a classic case of one-dimensional thinking. Pope Leo X didn't just offer Frederick the Imperial title (or that is, Papal funds to buy the title) because of throwing a random bribe at Frederick, he offered it because it suited his Papal ambitions in a number of different ways, and because it could actually have worked. Leo and a number of his predecessors wanted to detach the Hapsburgs from their sixty-ish year grip on the role and Frederick was genuinely a cultured, intelligent and most importantly popular major German ruler. He also was not powerful enough to continue to rule without Papal backing, at least initially. In other words, he was the kind of man who could have actually succeeded in winning the election - provided he had access to a pool of money the likes of the Pope's, in order to ensure the votes he needed - and once he did this, he would be largely a Papal puppet.
This offer would not have worked for anyone else. There were probably only a dozen men in Germany who were important enough to go in for the role and they were not the kind likely to win enough friends to be convincing of success. Outside of Germany there were several, but they were too powerful to be controlled by the Papacy afterwards, and importantly they were not German - the electors were very unlikely to go for a man who was not a German as they would fear outside interests. Most importantly, no-one else in Europe was sheltering Luther, and more than anything Leo X wanted Luther put on trial and executed for heresy, so he could nip the Protestant movement in the bud.
So simply, this offer to Frederick did not satisfy one Papal aim, it satisfied three - to rid Europe of Luther, to remove the Hapsburg control of the Imperial throne, and to turn the HREmperor into a Papal puppet, even if only for a while.
With all due respect, this is a classic case of one-dimensional thinking. Pope Leo X didn't just offer Frederick the Imperial title (or that is, Papal funds to buy the title) because of throwing a random bribe at Frederick, he offered it because it suited his Papal ambitions in a number of different ways, and because it could actually have worked. Leo and a number of his predecessors wanted to detach the Hapsburgs from their sixty-ish year grip on the role and Frederick was genuinely a cultured, intelligent and most importantly popular major German ruler. He also was not powerful enough to continue to rule without Papal backing, at least initially. In other words, he was the kind of man who could have actually succeeded in winning the election - provided he had access to a pool of money the likes of the Pope's, in order to ensure the votes he needed - and once he did this, he would be largely a Papal puppet.
This offer would not have worked for anyone else. There were probably only a dozen men in Germany who were important enough to go in for the role and they were not the kind likely to win enough friends to be convincing of success. Outside of Germany there were several, but they were too powerful to be controlled by the Papacy afterwards, and importantly they were not German - the electors were very unlikely to go for a man who was not a German as they would fear outside interests. Most importantly, no-one else in Europe was sheltering Luther, and more than anything Leo X wanted Luther put on trial and executed for heresy, so he could nip the Protestant movement in the bud.
So simply, this offer to Frederick did not satisfy one Papal aim, it satisfied three - to rid Europe of Luther, to remove the Hapsburg control of the Imperial throne, and to turn the HREmperor into a Papal puppet, even if only for a while.
Look at the other side of it. Would the Germans be willing to declare war on England and potentially open themselves to attack from the east just to save some hopeless Irish states with a shelf-life of a couple of generations which serve no benefit to the HRE and can't in any way pay off the cost of the war the Germans would incur?
Would "the entire HRE" go to war with England over one of these nations? Would it accept them as part of the HRE in the first place if they're clearly trying to join just to be protected from England?
There's this timeline, which might count as England in the HRE): https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=52457
Kinda sloppy on butterflies in some areas, but interesting.
what about Richard Of Cornwall becoming Holy Roman Emperor IOTL he was King of the Romans and one of the major challengers to the throne which the Hapsburgs won.
POD he able to consolidate power and become emperor thus a branch of House Plantagenet our now Holy Roman Emperors, at some point the English throne is claimed be the Emperor who grants it to a younger son, who is subsevent to the emperor well they may not be able to control England its at lest nomanly part of the HRE
POD he able to consolidate power and become emperor thus a branch of House Plantagenet our now Holy Roman Emperors, at some point the English throne is claimed be the Emperor who grants it to a younger son, who is subsevent to the emperor well they may not be able to control England its at lest nomanly part of the HRE
Richard had almost no interest in Germany, so you'd have to change that.
Not to mention that Richard becoming emperor does not mean his son will, or his son, etc. - so I don't think this going to get going.
Having a British King somehow be elected Holy Roman Emperor is FAR different than those lands becoming part of the HRE.
Charles V might have ruled Castille, Aragon, and the HRE, but Spain was never part of the HRE. Castille and Aragon were always legally and politically distinct from the HRE.
The HRE had its own institutions and political culture. Being part of the HRE mean being part of its institutions - the Imperial Diet, probably having Electors, having the Reichskammergericht as a supreme court, being part of one of the Imperial Circles.
It means, in essence, that the independent nature of England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales does not exist, and that they have become part of Germany. This is not Charlemagne's empire after all, but the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation. Italy spent centuries fighting the German emperors. Why wouldn't the people of the British Isles?
I don't see this happening at all unless the pretensions of the HRE to being the western empire was actually true, which means the Emperor is really the universal sovereign. So it means Charlemagne's empire somehow surviving, and not only keeping control of France, but invading and conquering Britain (perhaps after the independent kings of Englads fall at the hands of the Vikings). Of course, this is such a huge POD that the entire history of Europe changes.
Otherwise, all you have is some British monarch temporarily being elected HRE and getting sucked into internal German politics. Such a thing is theoretically possible, but I only see it as an aberration that neither the Germans nor the British want repeated.
Charles V might have ruled Castille, Aragon, and the HRE, but Spain was never part of the HRE. Castille and Aragon were always legally and politically distinct from the HRE.
The HRE had its own institutions and political culture. Being part of the HRE mean being part of its institutions - the Imperial Diet, probably having Electors, having the Reichskammergericht as a supreme court, being part of one of the Imperial Circles.
It means, in essence, that the independent nature of England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales does not exist, and that they have become part of Germany. This is not Charlemagne's empire after all, but the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation. Italy spent centuries fighting the German emperors. Why wouldn't the people of the British Isles?
I don't see this happening at all unless the pretensions of the HRE to being the western empire was actually true, which means the Emperor is really the universal sovereign. So it means Charlemagne's empire somehow surviving, and not only keeping control of France, but invading and conquering Britain (perhaps after the independent kings of Englads fall at the hands of the Vikings). Of course, this is such a huge POD that the entire history of Europe changes.
Otherwise, all you have is some British monarch temporarily being elected HRE and getting sucked into internal German politics. Such a thing is theoretically possible, but I only see it as an aberration that neither the Germans nor the British want repeated.
Poland-Lithuania expanded and contracted very fluidly thanks to its constitutional setup which was quite similar to the HRE.
Deutsche Freiheit could have proven very appealing had a French king taken on the barons in the wrong circumstances. Altering the end of the 100-years war so that Charles VI's centralisation goes ahead without the patriotic wind of anti-English sentiment might do the trick. A Franco-German empire with a much extended list of electors could swallow up Europe in its entirety.
Deutsche Freiheit could have proven very appealing had a French king taken on the barons in the wrong circumstances. Altering the end of the 100-years war so that Charles VI's centralisation goes ahead without the patriotic wind of anti-English sentiment might do the trick. A Franco-German empire with a much extended list of electors could swallow up Europe in its entirety.
Richard I Lionheart paid homage to the HRE for England during his imprisonment in Germany. England was tentatively an Imperial fief for some time after and Edward III was named Imperial Vicar west of the Rhine (or something along those lines). At some point the HRE was paid off but I can't remember when or on what terms.
That said Britain and Ireland, being islands, were also nominal Papal fiefs. Note how the Pope had to issue a bull establishing Henry VII as legitimate king and later felt entitled to depose Elizabeth I. Maybe the ovetlordship of England could be made into a major part of Papal and Imperial disputes in an ATL.
That said Britain and Ireland, being islands, were also nominal Papal fiefs. Note how the Pope had to issue a bull establishing Henry VII as legitimate king and later felt entitled to depose Elizabeth I. Maybe the ovetlordship of England could be made into a major part of Papal and Imperial disputes in an ATL.
That was the POD of my Timeline "A Salian England" (link: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=52457).
Unfortunately, I had to take some time away from that timeline to study, back in 2006. When I finally had time to return to it, I discovered that the true curse of a writer is not the infamous ‘writer’s block’, but to look back and wince. I simply couldn’t look at how the timeline was progressing and believe in it.
What status would the British areas be? Legally there could not be a kingdom, as there were only allowed to be kings for Germany, Bohemia, and the Romans in the Empire. I believe because of something about there being four groups, being the Germans, Slavs, Romans, and Gauls. Not sure if they would extend things to the British or label them as Germans or Celts.