Best modern infantry rifle?

Though ballistically impressive, the .357Sig has the same issue as the .40S&W- it is too brisk for any handgun currently made for it, so they have long-term reliability issues. Parts crack. Thus, it is a poor choice as a mass-issued weapon. [Numerous police departments that adopted it are now changing back to 9mm or .45ACP] Perhaps someday someone will design a decent handgun around it. And it likely still isn't significantly better than a +P 9mm regards to "stopping."

But I, too, bemoan the extinction of rifle grenades in the US military. It seems like a simple and handy capability to me.
 
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EMTSATX

Banned
@acrsome thanks. I'm the OP you hit the head on what I was asking.
@sloreck I appreciate the review on the .45. I admit I am a fan , and you echo my thoughts.

I didn't realize breach teams had separate shotguns. Like I said I was a medic on med flight's, so I never fired my weapons in anger.
 
There is certainly something to be said for sticking with what you know. This is much of the appeal of the M16, to me.
 
But I, too, bemoan the extinction of rifle grenades in the US military. It seems like a simple and handy capability to me.
they are handy, and could be reintroduced any time, but an underslung 40mm launcher is better. the range of the riflegrenade depends on the calibre used, and it did a lot better with a 7,62mm.
also there is the issue of weapon stress, since the grenade departs somewhat slower than a bullet and the fact that a special propellant cartridge is fairly topped up it puts a lot of stress on the barrel (the expanding gasses stay locked up a little longer)
 
Shotguns have been used in the US military since WWI for sure. Currently the US military issues shotguns for defense in HQ type units - not the same as those issued for breaching actions.
longer than that, the US has been shotgun country since before the US existed
 
Hi, all. I had an account here many years ago, but lost my password and got rid of the associated email account, so I've only lurked for about a decade. Frankly, I don't know enough history to contribute- at least to this board's standards, which seem pretty demanding. But on this topic I can, so I re-registered.

I'll get to other points later (this will be long-winded) but the OP asked:

If you could equip American forces (using our current mission requirements) what infantry rifle would you use?


OTOH if the OP meant to ask "What is is the bestest most awesomest Western battle rifle on an individual level as opposed to an issue level?" then that's a different conversation. But as asked the list of contenders has to include M16 (HK416), G36, and FN SCAR.

On to off-topic stuff that has come up...

The LSAT program. Current advances in small arms are largely material, not basic design. (Polymer chassis such as the G36 or FN SCAR come to mind.) It will be difficult to improve upon current designs, the M16 included. The LSAT program has some promise, though- I just don't think that future developments are what the OP had in mind. Personally I'm a 6.5mm fanboy, but I think sticking with something around 5.56mm is probably still the way to go for an issue battle rifle (unless they can get the weight of the 6.5mm down considerably). People like the 6.5mm because of it's awesome ballistic coefficient, as do I. But 6.5mm projectiles have that awesome BC solely for historical reasons! To whit: the projectiles are very long and heavy in proportion to their their caliber compared to most others. Since we're starting from scratch with the cased telescoping (or caseless) rounds of the LSAT program we should be redesigning the 5.56mm projectile to be much longer-for-it's-caliber, too. Then it would likely be capable of meeting the long-range engagement requirements by itself, with a similarly awesome BC. Back when the M16 first came out the long-range service rifle shooters all poo-pooed them... until they started winning all of service-rifle matches. The 5.56mm, properly loaded, has better external ballistics than any realistic 7.62mmx51 loads. Nowadays you never see anything but M16s (actually, ARs) in the service-rifle matches. For a reason. Terminal ballistics, yes, are not as good at extreme ranges. But a longer projectile (that would have a very rearward center of gravity and tumble easily) would fix that, too.

Handguns. Any time someone uses the term "stopping power" in relation to handguns and it isn't in scare quotes, you should probably ignore everything they say. (Yes I exaggerate for humor- I hope my point is understood, though.) Joules is not "stopping power." Muzzle energy is not "stopping power." The truth is, we have no idea what "stopping power" is. The only remotely scientific data anyone has ever gathered defined it as "the assailant ceasing aggressive action," which more often that not means a psychological affect, not a physiological one. So this is very hard to study. That data also shows that above a certain minimum (probably somewhere between .380ACP and 9mmP) that caliber doesn't matter. The only independent factor that matters is how many times you hit the guy. Handgun rounds are low-velocity, enough so that temporary cavities do not really come into play. (Unlike rifle rounds, generally. Don't get me started on Fackler.) So handguns all just poke holes in things, and the statistical difference between a 9mm hole and an 11.4mm hole is trivial. That wound channel has to intersect a vital structure. (And if you really want to get persnickety about caliber then two 9mm channels are superior to one 11.4mm channel.) I personally don't like 10mm rounds for logistical reasons. The .40S&W has proven to be overpowered for every platform we've tried to use it in, to the point of cracking slides over long use. Probably because most have been based on prior 9mm designs. A decent reliable gun could probably be built around it, but none has to date. (Though I admit I haven't paid attention for a few years, so I may be wrong.) Also, the entire thought process that lead to it was flawed- the FBI drew entirely the wrong conclusions from the Miami Shootout, as they themselves have recently tacitly admitted. Modern +P 9mm is at least equivalent to .40S&W.

Every other handgun stopping power study or metric has either been fatally flawed or obviously biased (usually by the .45ACP fanboys, of whom I am one, so that should tell you something).

So within those minimal limits an easily-controllable, more-easily trained, and higher-capacity caliber would be assumed to be superior. So we're talking about 9mmP or somesuch, here. Any of the current polymer "wondernines" would serve. Glocks are good, and widespread, so they have a logistical benefit. I personally am not a striker-fired guy, but I could learn. I like SIGs, and they would be a great choice if you don't like polymer wondernines. I love shooting my 1911, but proposing that a 100-year-old design would be a quality combat handgun by modern standards is madness. They are incredibly maintenance-intensive, low-capacity, and unreliable. Some groups like LAPD SWAT and USMC are trying to use them again as they re-learn whether or not there is really a benefit to .45. [As I said, some lessons just need to be re-learned.]

The Beretta M9 is a monstrosity. An exposed barrel (to both burn your hand and allow crud into the action) and a slide-mounted safety (that you can't reach)? What the hell were they thinking? A combat handgun shouldn't have a safety! In the unlikely event that you need a handgun then in all likelihood you will need it very badly, and very quickly. So no safety- at best a decocker on a double-action capable gun, or none at all like a Glock or the other striker-fired guns. I understand the US military's concern about not having a positive safety, but a decocked double-action would be very reasonable.

Similarly, don't listen to anyone who claims that shooting a human with a 12.7mm projectile is a violation of the Geneva Convention. That's a longstanding myth that Just Won't Die. Distressingly, it is even perpetuated within the US military by ignorant NCOs who read it on the internet once, or something. [If you are one of them, for the sake of your troops I urge you to request a Geneva Conventions briefing from JAG and ask them.] Many nations are using .50 caliber sniper rifles, for instance, and there are no Danish reporters having fits about it.

Whew! Sorry, that was a lot. In particular, I find myself dispelling "stopping power" fairly often. But I have to stop. I have a case starting. So I also haven't had a chance to do my usual re-editing to avoid ruffling feathers- I apologize if I offend anyone with my gruffness. People tend to get very prickly about this topic.
I don't disagree with you on most of these things, I am wondering though, the new US military handgun program has been limited to 3 SIG, GLOCK and S&W. I am hoping for SIG or S&W. Which if you had to guess do you think they would go for?
Also is it possible for the US military to have both a 9mm pistol and a 45ACP pistol?

I think when it comes to the 6.5mm question we need to be careful Afghanistan and Iraq are deserts and unique situations that exist there. However the idea of having a DMR or two could and can solve many problems.

Finally the 5.56mm FN SCAR maybe a great gun but it is heavy for the caliber from what I understand.
 
Hi, all. I had an account here many years ago, but lost my password and got rid of the associated email account, so I've only lurked for about a decade. Frankly, I don't know enough history to contribute- at least to this board's standards, which seem pretty demanding. But on this topic I can, so I re-registered.

I'll get to other points later (this will be long-winded) but the OP asked:

If you could equip American forces (using our current mission requirements) what infantry rifle would you use?

First, the AK is not going to cut it. It's legendary reliability is overstated. It is woefully inaccurate. It is heavy. It is criminally unergonomic. It isn't a horrible choice for many militaries- it is cheap and available- but it is horrible for the US military, for the many reasons others have stated above.

[Anyone who spends any time immersed in "gun culture" will swiftly realize that there are immense amounts of fanboyism, hyperbole, posturing, and sheer rank idiocy involved. So be skeptical of anything you see on the interwebs about guns. Including this.

We're discussing firearms in internet forum under pseudonyms. Stop ruining the fun :)

If your army is backed by modern industry and economy, the the battle rifle will generally fall under the category "Not AK" Kalashnikov action maybe, but not AK. AK is the way to go if you need
-Lots of guns
-Cheap
-Quickly
and have a rudimentary manufacturing base. Mechanical Engineer worth his slide rule could probably have a high school metal shop crank out decent AK's using the students as workforce. so they will allways have their niche, but for current US army for current missons. Not so much.
 
No need, F2 grenade are launch with a normal cartridge.

Problem with a 40mm launcher is more weight for a rifleman and that only the grenadier can launch grenade. In my team (a "trinome 300", 3 men with FAMAS and AT-4) everyone can launch a grenade and we don't carry a lot more weight.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC58
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APAV40
i know, i was covering both cases. the riflegrenade with a bullettrap or a bullet passthrough and blank.
both cases still put a a lot of stress on the barrel
 

marathag

Banned
US didn't sign on to the 1899 Hague Convention that covered expanding bullets.

It did with the 1907 Hague Convention, which bans “arms, projectiles or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering'

Hollow Points are more deadly, so that's less suffering-- a more efficient killer, plus less likely to cause collateral damage than FMJ ammo, that can penetrate tissue more deeply, can penetrate through a target and potentially hit others innocent civilians nearby. FMJs ricochet more than HPSP and hit others, as well
 
the conventions are supposed to be consecutive, so 1907 one will also include the 1899 one.
also the american also cherrypicked the Geneva convention in the misguided idea that they still will have protection of the Geneva convention if they only keep to parts of it.
(most countries hold the opinion follow the whole convention or nothing...)
 
Also is it possible for the US military to have both a 9mm pistol and a 45ACP pistol?

IIRC, the capability to be multi-caliber is in the trial specifications as "desirable", but not required. I think that's what S&W is banking on, since theirs can swap slides easily. I think. I haven't really read up on it in a while.

I definitely remember that they specifically said that any caliber was in contention- they weren't just sticking with 9mm or .45ACP or whatever.
 
the conventions are supposed to be consecutive, so 1907 one will also include the 1899 one.
also the american also cherrypicked the Geneva convention in the misguided idea that they still will have protection of the Geneva convention if they only keep to parts of it.
(most countries hold the opinion follow the whole convention or nothing...)

Actually, the american hold the opinion that we are bound by the Geneva Convention even when we are fighting people who are not signatories and who violate every possible standard of human conduct, like the Taliban or ISIS.

I get my Geneva Convention briefing every year, brother...
 

marathag

Banned
the conventions are supposed to be consecutive, so 1907 one will also include the 1899 one.
also the american also cherrypicked the Geneva convention in the misguided idea that they still will have protection of the Geneva convention if they only keep to parts of it.
(most countries hold the opinion follow the whole convention or nothing...)

Yet the US had been using Shotguns with Buckshot past 1907 without being ruled in violation. .36 caliber lead balls expand on impact.

And the US has been protected by GC during the Wars since.
 
Hollow-point ammo for handguns is in itself insignificant, as is any hand weapon ammo in modern warfare. My main point is that a number of conventions are hopelessly out of date and it is frontline soldiers and people needing protection that pays the price for politicians not daring to realise. Next it is a growing problem that the opponents we have seen and are likely to see in the foreseeable future don't give a damn about conventions. I fully realise that this should not necessarily have us be as brutal, but there is a limit of how asymetrical warfare can be if it is not just sacrificing the soldiers.

Anyway it is a very good question what actually is humane. Some years ago the Police here in Dk was armed with 7,65mm Walther PPK pistols. Shooting a criminal in the leg would often just result in a small hole in his leg and he could go on with whatever he was tried to be stopped from. The result was that the police often had to shoot the criminal in the head and killing him where a larger pistol, perhaps using hollow-point (like in hunting) might have stopped him without killing him.

Since when do police train to shoot someone in the leg with a handgun when they are actually right now in the process of doing something potentially lethal to someone? If there is a clear, urgent threat to life and limb right the fuck now you shoot for the centre of mass. In a siege situation where you might actually have the time and ability to shoot someone in the leg, whether you "stop them" is unlikely to matter and I bloody hope you have a highly trained marksman doing it anyway.
 
then you are aware that the us doesn't subscribe to everything in the Geneva convention.
i know that the us considers itself bound by their Geneva convention definition.

Yet the US had been using Shotguns with Buckshot past 1907 without being ruled in violation. .36 caliber lead balls expand on impact.

seems more a matter of the winner writing the rules, since the Germans did file a complaint about the use of shotguns in ww1.
 
If you're saying that the US hasn't signed every protocol- like many other countries- well, true. We never signed the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons, for instance, because of the unique requirements of defending South Korea. That's if you want to even consider that part of the "Geneva Conventions," as it was in 1980.

Of the four treaties and three protocols in what are normally considered to be The Geneva Conventions, we have only not ratified Protocol II (we did sign it- just not ratified it) which deals with the protection of victims of non-international conflicts. And I would point out that essentially everything in Protocol II has since been enshrined in US law, anyway, and it is all certainly US military policy.

So, what exactly is your point? Or are you just trying to poke at the US?

While we're on the subject, the hollow-point ban is dated, was naive at its inception, essentially politically motivated by a desire to make the UK look bad, and needs to be reconsidered, anyway. It's legal to shoot a drug dealer with a hollow-point but not an ISIS suicide bomber? WTF? Well, I guess that's our own fault to calling them "combatants" rather than "criminals", but we sure didn't want to impose any need to try to arrest them first upon ourselves, did we? :)

We really need a third legal category for stuff like that, other than "criminal" or "combatant."
 
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the point is, the sections the us is deviating pertains treatment of prisoners for one.
in conflicts against non-state operators like daesh that doesn't change much. but once you get in a conflict with another state it does matter.
it essentially means that any americans that get taken prisoner can expect not to be protected in those sections of the geneva convention either.
just risky in my opinion.

the ban goes beyond hollow point, it practically could mean any weapon that creates excess damage in relation to what it is supposed to do (point of discussion for example using 0.50 in anti-personnel roles)
 
Then I suspect that you are confusing your conventions, or something. We're talking about Protocol II. That's the only one we haven't ratified, and it deals with the treatment of victims of non-international conflicts. That is, with conflicts limited to within the borders of a single country, such as civil wars. Which, thankfully, we tend to stay out of.

And, as I said, everything in it is US law, anyway, even though we haven't ratified the Protocol. Thus, considering that we signed it and that we are in compliance with it, I'd say that we have a pretty damned good legal claim to it's protections. (Not that anyone is going to be intervening in the Second American Civil War any time soon.) And IIRC we consider it all covered under the Third Convention, anyway. Which we have ratified, and which deals with the treatment of prisoners of war.

Further, I'll reiterate- it is not illegal to use .50 caliber weapons against human beings in warfare. That is a Myth That Just Won't Die, and that you proclaim it is but another reason to suspect that you're not really understanding what you're claiming. But some people will still violently argue the subject to this day, out of ignorance. This misinformation is promulgated widely- indeed it is nigh ubiquitous- so I can hardly blame you for not bothering to look it up or something. And I guess the "so we shoot at his belt buckle" thing is too funny not to live on. But the West is using .50 caliber sniper rifles against humans almost every day, and I have yet to hear of any war crimes tribunals about it. :)

Unless we're just having internet communication difficulties or something, which I think we all know is pretty common.

On the other hand, if you're talking about the recent scandals over US treatment of Taliban prisoners, waterboarding, etc. under the Bush administration, well... I think you'd be surprised at how many Americans agree with you. But that has nothing to do with us not signing Protocol II- the argument for it was totally different, essentially weasel-wording about how waterboarding isn't 'torture.' It has to do with Cheney is an evil bastard, and W was too spineless and stupid to disagree with him.

If I have just violated some board rule about politics or some such, please let me know and I'll delete.
 
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