"Balkanizing" North America
- Thread starter Eckener
- Start date
All good points. You know, this wasn't what I was looking for when I started this post, but the more and more this idea gets discussed, the more I like it
So would a proper PoD be the Dutch NOT taking New Sweden?
Or better just keeping the English from taking New Netherlands?
If so, I believe this would leave English settlements in the New World divided, with Virginia to the south of New Sweden/Netherlands, and "New England" to the north. That probably doesn't bode well for the non-English colonies.
That's it. I'm going to go find a good map of the time period.
Having both PoDs would give you maximum balkanization. The simplest way is that succesful Swedish defence leads the Dutch to build up more military in North America. So they manage to repel British attempts at New Amsterdam or regain it in a swap with, say, Suriname or some sugar island. The tiny Swedish colony thrives but does not expand, and the Danes set up their one out of competition with Sweden, probably in OTL Maine. Then you have the flood of Protestant French emigrés to New Amsterdam and a this point the colony is somewhat competitive with the British ones population-wise, though still less populated (and some English will be there also). However England and the Netherlands are going to ally soon after so the threat is now the less populated French Canada, but clashes there are going to be important later than OTL since the Hudson valley is less settled. The outcome of the Northern War leads both Sweden and Denmark to focus more on America. Austria sets a base in OTL Georgia via Low Countries as political move in the context of the later phase of the war of Spanish succession and forces Spain to accept it in the Treaty as prestige point. The colony never really grows much and its plantation economy develops very slowly, maybe it is a little more active as a mission center for natives. maybe some jesuits try to do something similar to paraguayan reducciones among the Cherokee. Britain gets Acadia and their tiny French population proves to be an unruly pain in the ass to administer. Germans from Hanover settle in western areas of Virgina, Maryland and Pennsylvania and prove to be not in so good terms with their english-speaking neighbors.
France and Spain are allied against Britain, Netherlands and Austria for most time, with Sweden leaning towards the French side and Denmark towards the opposite, but neither side is as strong or as united and coordinated to get a decisive edge.
Tensions arise within the colonies among speakers German and English, Dutch and French, or French and Flemish, and possibly even Swedish and Finnish, over different geographical interests and, later, official languages. The English colonies are rife with religious divides. Catholic Maryland is viewed with suspicion by neighbouring Anglican Virginia and Carolinas, and both are not beloved by the Puritan-dominated New England, while everybody agree in despising the small Quaker colony north of Maryland, whose development is hampered by neighboring settlements of mainly Finn-speaking Swedes. When the Revolutions ravage Europe, some colonies declare independence, a successful slave revolt carves a Black republic from South Carolina, and the sparsely populated French-controlled areas are broken apart, but the English forces are unable to keep them under control. They fill southern Louisiana with French Emigré nobles who declare themselves and martinique to be the "Kingdom of France", while the Acadiens rebel and manage to pretend to be a sister republic to Republican France. Britain has hard time enough in coping with her own colonies and resettling loyalists escaped from the rebel ones among them to Oregon to care much of the rest. The métis of Quebec migrate into Ontario in ordare to escape discrimination and conflict between Monarchists and Republicans in Canada proper.
In 1811 Kentucky declares indipendence from Virginia, and wins it with support of the British last loyal colony of Carolina and of Maryland. The german-speaking Lutheran West Virginia also takes the opportunity to secede and so does the German Catholic West Maryland, forcing Virginia and Maryland into a uneasy alliance. New Amsterdam supports the rebels sso they win too, but has to grant increasing autonomy to its own Upper-Hudson french-speaking minority.
New Finland declares independence after the Russian invasion of Finland and New Sweden proper follows suit.
I think it's quite a funny scenario (not very likely in the latter part though, i know).
It is a really cool map
Probably one of many things that got me interested in Alternate History in the first place.
Haha okay, so I found a map, and went to work
World, 1660
World, 1680
World, 1700
Not entirely sure how accurate this all is, but tried not to go too crazy.
PoD would be in the mid 1650s 1660s, with Sweden not loosing New Sweden, and then later the Anglo-Dutch wars being avoided/ending differently.
(btw, my focus for tonight's purposes was purely on NA. I didn't touch anywhere else.
New France Colonies:
Saint-Laurent
Canada
New England Colonies:
Connecticut
Massachusetts
Maryland*(NH/Vermont)
New Hampshire*(Maine)
Dutch Colonies:
New Netherlands
New Holland
Swedish Colonies:
New Sweden
New Finland
Southern English Colonies:
Virginia
Carolina
Pennsylvania* (approx Georgia, OTL)
* denotes same name, different location.
Does anybody know what's likely going on in Europe? Obviously there'd be changes going on, I'm just not sure what. Also, I'd imagine with the Southern and Northern English colonies being divided by the Dutch and the Swedes, there's tension building that could likely lead to a war sometime in the mid-1700s (an analogue to the OTL French and Indian War/Seven Year War?). Any ideas?
World, 1660
World, 1680
World, 1700
Not entirely sure how accurate this all is, but tried not to go too crazy.
PoD would be in the mid 1650s 1660s, with Sweden not loosing New Sweden, and then later the Anglo-Dutch wars being avoided/ending differently.
(btw, my focus for tonight's purposes was purely on NA. I didn't touch anywhere else.
New France Colonies:
Saint-Laurent
Canada
New England Colonies:
Connecticut
Massachusetts
Maryland*(NH/Vermont)
New Hampshire*(Maine)
Dutch Colonies:
New Netherlands
New Holland
Swedish Colonies:
New Sweden
New Finland
Southern English Colonies:
Virginia
Carolina
Pennsylvania* (approx Georgia, OTL)
* denotes same name, different location.
Does anybody know what's likely going on in Europe? Obviously there'd be changes going on, I'm just not sure what. Also, I'd imagine with the Southern and Northern English colonies being divided by the Dutch and the Swedes, there's tension building that could likely lead to a war sometime in the mid-1700s (an analogue to the OTL French and Indian War/Seven Year War?). Any ideas?
And because I've apparently got insomnia, and this idea is fun, here's some more:
World, 1730:
(apologies, I forgot to turn a layer off when I saved this one. I've got a another map that I'm using as a guide that has all the OTL state boundaries)
World, 1750:
In the 1740s, the Southern English Colonies and the Dutch Colonies go to war with the Swedes. The result is that New Finland is absorbed by Virginia and New Holland, and New Sweden is placed under Dutch control (new name pending).
New France Colonies:
Saint-Laurent
Canada
West Canada
Louisiana
New England Colonies:
New Hampshire
Maryland
Massachusetts
Connecticut
Dutch Colonies:
New Netherlands
New Holland
New Sweden
Southern English Colonies:
"Greater" Virginia
Carolina
Pennsylvania
World, 1730:
(apologies, I forgot to turn a layer off when I saved this one. I've got a another map that I'm using as a guide that has all the OTL state boundaries)
World, 1750:
In the 1740s, the Southern English Colonies and the Dutch Colonies go to war with the Swedes. The result is that New Finland is absorbed by Virginia and New Holland, and New Sweden is placed under Dutch control (new name pending
). New France Colonies:
Saint-Laurent
Canada
West Canada
Louisiana
New England Colonies:
New Hampshire
Maryland
Massachusetts
Connecticut
Dutch Colonies:
New Netherlands
New Holland
New Sweden
Southern English Colonies:
"Greater" Virginia
Carolina
Pennsylvania
So I'm thinking that in the 1760s there'd still be a war with France, possibly a France/Indian vs. British/Dutch?
As for the outcome....still let France keep Louisiana, lose Saint-Laurent, Canada and West Canada?
Then, after THAT war, the British and Dutch both try to crack down on the lax treatment of their respective "navigation act" policies which doesn't sit will with the colonials, though the south isn't as bothered as the Dutch and New England Colonies. Eventually tensions will build and lead to a "revolution". the South will initially remain loyal, until the crown starts to conscript locals into the fight in the North, at which point Virginia declares independence, and Carolina and Pennsylvania follow. By the end of the 1780s, New England, the Dutch Colonies, and the Southern Colonies are all independent.
Sound plausible?
I could use someone who could fill in the gaps in Europe though.
As for the outcome....still let France keep Louisiana, lose Saint-Laurent, Canada and West Canada?
Then, after THAT war, the British and Dutch both try to crack down on the lax treatment of their respective "navigation act" policies which doesn't sit will with the colonials, though the south isn't as bothered as the Dutch and New England Colonies. Eventually tensions will build and lead to a "revolution". the South will initially remain loyal, until the crown starts to conscript locals into the fight in the North, at which point Virginia declares independence, and Carolina and Pennsylvania follow. By the end of the 1780s, New England, the Dutch Colonies, and the Southern Colonies are all independent.
Sound plausible?
I could use someone who could fill in the gaps in Europe though.
the American war of independence was really the turning point for the British empire as Simon schma pointed out Britain ended up with "the wrong empire" by the close of the century. America was the colony India was the trading partner so if Britain holds on to the America (and any other European nation ) its going to put the rest on the back burner so other nations will set up shop in Australia and India and even if you still get the OTL britwank that was Australia and India its unlikely that the OTL Canada template will be there to follow Australia only Federated in 1900 with some debate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation_of_Australia
Okay, here's what I've done today. Up to 1795:
World, 1762,
On the eve of the French and Indian War
World, 1769
Post F&I War. France cedes Saint-Laurent, Canada, West Canada, and Upper Louisiana to the British and the Dutch. Spain cedes Florida to the British and part of Upper New Spain to the allies, which is given to Denmark in recognition of their assistance. New Sweden is also returned to Sweden for their part in the war.
World, 1775
Around 1770, the British set up several semi-autonomous regions for some of the native tribes under their rule: the Metis, Iroquois, Cherokee, Chickasaw, and the Seminole. Things are simmering in New England and New Netherlands-New Holland, and by 1778, full blown revolt will have broken out.
World, 1785
Peace is won but not official in North America. Initially, Only New England and the Dutch colonies broke away for independence. However, after British military officers in Virginia demanded troops and were denied in late 1778, they suspended the Virginia Assembly and began conscription....within 6 months the 4 southern Colonies (Virginia, Carolina, Pennsylvania, and Georgia*) are also at war with the motherland. With aid from France and Spain, the colonies have achieved their independence, which will be formalized in 1786 in the Treaty of Madrid, which recognized the independence of the Federation of New England, the Union of Dutch America, and the Southern Confederation of America.
World, 1795
The SCA has dissolved, "replaced" by the Commonwealth of Greater Virginia, the Republic of Georgia, the Republic of Carolina, and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. The Dutch have reorganized into the Union of the American Netherlands, and the New Englanders (Yankees) have reorganized as the Republic of New England.
World, 1762,
On the eve of the French and Indian War
World, 1769
Post F&I War. France cedes Saint-Laurent, Canada, West Canada, and Upper Louisiana to the British and the Dutch. Spain cedes Florida to the British and part of Upper New Spain to the allies, which is given to Denmark in recognition of their assistance. New Sweden is also returned to Sweden for their part in the war.
World, 1775
Around 1770, the British set up several semi-autonomous regions for some of the native tribes under their rule: the Metis, Iroquois, Cherokee, Chickasaw, and the Seminole. Things are simmering in New England and New Netherlands-New Holland, and by 1778, full blown revolt will have broken out.
World, 1785
Peace is won but not official in North America. Initially, Only New England and the Dutch colonies broke away for independence. However, after British military officers in Virginia demanded troops and were denied in late 1778, they suspended the Virginia Assembly and began conscription....within 6 months the 4 southern Colonies (Virginia, Carolina, Pennsylvania, and Georgia*) are also at war with the motherland. With aid from France and Spain, the colonies have achieved their independence, which will be formalized in 1786 in the Treaty of Madrid, which recognized the independence of the Federation of New England, the Union of Dutch America, and the Southern Confederation of America.
World, 1795
The SCA has dissolved, "replaced" by the Commonwealth of Greater Virginia, the Republic of Georgia, the Republic of Carolina, and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. The Dutch have reorganized into the Union of the American Netherlands, and the New Englanders (Yankees) have reorganized as the Republic of New England.
Interesting, and I like it. I was going to say that a revolt against the mother-countries wouldn't happen with other colonies so near, but if the English and the Dutch have been the best of best buddies for 200+ years, I can see how it happens anyways. I think the three southern countries would eventually still form up into a sort of national bloc, but being divided by the Dutch, plus cultural differences, means they'll never join up with New England.
Is there a reason Spain has Missouri, or is that something else?
Oh, I almost missed New Sweden. What happened to them?
Is there a reason Spain has Missouri, or is that something else?
Oh, I almost missed New Sweden. What happened to them?
It is a really cool map
Probably one of many things that got me interested in Alternate History in the first place.
Ha, I went to save the map and found I already had it.
Hey sorry about that random looking post. I'd gone in to edit my really detailed post covering some explanations of the alt-Revolution and New Sweden and things and apparently, when I tried to save it, my computer must have lost it's internet connection or something because it cut off most of the post.
I'll have a new post up later.
Just for better reference, here's a map of just North America in 1795:
(BTW, Sucrose, New Spain doesn't have "Missouri". That area is the "Republic of Georgia")
I've actually have a work up of the alt-War of 1812 (ITTL, the War of 1813/ War of 1814--depending on if you ask the Georgians and the Pennsylvanians or the New Netherlanders and the New Englanders.), with the map ending in 1821 after the peace is settled.
I'll have a new post up later.
Just for better reference, here's a map of just North America in 1795:
(BTW, Sucrose, New Spain doesn't have "Missouri". That area is the "Republic of Georgia")
I've actually have a work up of the alt-War of 1812 (ITTL, the War of 1813/ War of 1814--depending on if you ask the Georgians and the Pennsylvanians or the New Netherlanders and the New Englanders.), with the map ending in 1821 after the peace is settled.
Okay, so here's what I came up with on Sunday:
World, 1810
So, basically we've got some westward expansion of Georgians, and the main change is the independence of the "Republic of Ohio" from Virginia in 1807.
World, 1814
The "War of 1813" has broken out in the Interior and the South. Georgia is invaded by Britain after several boarder disputes, and the fact that Georgian frontiersmen have continuously poured into the southern most regions of British West Canada and claimed it as part of Georgia. Britain also gets it's ally Denmark to invade from the South.
Also, Britain is at war with Pennsylvania, after the Pennsylvanians discover that the British have been running guns to the Cherokee and Chickasaw and trying to cause those native nations to make war on Pennsylvania. The Pennsylvanians invade British Florida, and convince the Seminoles to ally with the French.
World, 1816
Georgia has been successfully cut in half by the British and the Danes. However, 1816 is a turning point against the British in the war, since the French are now formally at war with Britain and Denmark, and Spain is unofficially aiding as well. New England has also declared war on Britain after continuous British interference with Yankee trade with Pennsylvania and Louisiana and Acadia. The Iroquois Nation, which was granted full independence from the Union of the American Netherlands in 1808, has also invaded British Canada.
World, 1818
Denmark has made peace with Georgia and France, and surrendered some of its territory to both countries. Georgia, with the aid of the UAN, Ohio, France, and Carolina, has pushed the British out of Georgia and has successfully launched an invasion of British West Canada.
Pennsylvania has full control over most of British Florida, with the Seminole Nation retaining control of the rest of the peninsula.
New England has repelled invasion and successfully occupied part of British St. Lawrence.
World, 1820
A cease fire now exists in North America as the War of 1813 (or, if you are from New England, the War of 1814) has essentially ended. The official peace treaty will be made the following year.
The southern half of British West Canada is under joint Georgian/UAN occupation, while much of St. Lawrence is under Yankee occupation.
World, 1821
The Treaty of Copenhagen is signed in Spring of 1821. Britain cedes Florida to Pennsylvania, cedes the southern part of British West Canada to Georgia (territory of Mississippi) and to the UAN (added on to Dutch West Canada), cedes occupied sections of St. Lawrence to the Republic of New England (becomes the State of St. Lawrence), cedes territory to the Iroquois Nation.
I'll try to make an updated North America map later.
I seriously need suggestions on what's going on in Europe. Any ideas there?
World, 1810
So, basically we've got some westward expansion of Georgians, and the main change is the independence of the "Republic of Ohio" from Virginia in 1807.
World, 1814
The "War of 1813" has broken out in the Interior and the South. Georgia is invaded by Britain after several boarder disputes, and the fact that Georgian frontiersmen have continuously poured into the southern most regions of British West Canada and claimed it as part of Georgia. Britain also gets it's ally Denmark to invade from the South.
Also, Britain is at war with Pennsylvania, after the Pennsylvanians discover that the British have been running guns to the Cherokee and Chickasaw and trying to cause those native nations to make war on Pennsylvania. The Pennsylvanians invade British Florida, and convince the Seminoles to ally with the French.
World, 1816
Georgia has been successfully cut in half by the British and the Danes. However, 1816 is a turning point against the British in the war, since the French are now formally at war with Britain and Denmark, and Spain is unofficially aiding as well. New England has also declared war on Britain after continuous British interference with Yankee trade with Pennsylvania and Louisiana and Acadia. The Iroquois Nation, which was granted full independence from the Union of the American Netherlands in 1808, has also invaded British Canada.
World, 1818
Denmark has made peace with Georgia and France, and surrendered some of its territory to both countries. Georgia, with the aid of the UAN, Ohio, France, and Carolina, has pushed the British out of Georgia and has successfully launched an invasion of British West Canada.
Pennsylvania has full control over most of British Florida, with the Seminole Nation retaining control of the rest of the peninsula.
New England has repelled invasion and successfully occupied part of British St. Lawrence.
World, 1820
A cease fire now exists in North America as the War of 1813 (or, if you are from New England, the War of 1814) has essentially ended. The official peace treaty will be made the following year.
The southern half of British West Canada is under joint Georgian/UAN occupation, while much of St. Lawrence is under Yankee occupation.
World, 1821
The Treaty of Copenhagen is signed in Spring of 1821. Britain cedes Florida to Pennsylvania, cedes the southern part of British West Canada to Georgia (territory of Mississippi) and to the UAN (added on to Dutch West Canada), cedes occupied sections of St. Lawrence to the Republic of New England (becomes the State of St. Lawrence), cedes territory to the Iroquois Nation.
I'll try to make an updated North America map later.
I seriously need suggestions on what's going on in Europe. Any ideas there?
My gut is telling me that you might have settlement in the Great Plains a tad too early here. These are lands that weren't even organized into states until the late 1840's in OTL, and that's with an organized, systematic expansion of territory.
Hopefully someone else can chime in and confirm or deny my hunch here.
Hopefully someone else can chime in and confirm or deny my hunch here.
I'm thinking you might be right. Though to be fair, the alt-Iowa (missouri) and Kansas (Kanzas) "states" are just territorial claims of the Republic of Georgia, not actual states.
How I've worked it out today, the territory of Missouri will be a state in the (reorganized) Georgian Union by 1835, and Kanzas will be a state by 1845, and "North Kanzas" by 1855, Montana (aprox Colorado/Wyoming) will be a state by 1865, and then Colorado and Oregonia by 1875.
Maybe that's too quick...I don't know for sure.
With many nations in the Americas it would take longer to go west and there will be wars over who gets the territory, which would lead into a convention where the land might be split up between some nations or it is left to the natives to try and avoid further wars over the disputed territories
Hmm....okay. So, at what point should I go back and rewrite? Is my alt-War of 1812 to out there?
One thinking to explain "faster" expansion into the west is the lack of OTL's Proclamation of 1763, when the British Government wouldn't allow their settlers to cross the Appalachian Mountains into the Ohio River Valley.
ITTL, the British and Dutch set up independent territories for the "friendly" tribes, and don't bother with preventing western settlement. So, by the time of the revolution, the Colony of Georgia had been set up, and though technically given a certain amount of territory, most of it stays empty except along the Ohio river.
I was thinking that river trade along the Ohio and Mississippi would drive early settlement, at least to what i've posted so far. Maybe what I've got planned (but haven't posted yet) goes too far to fast in settling the west.