Avro Arrow TL (NOT CANADA-WANK)
- Thread starter Fearless Leader
- Start date
Fearless Leader
Donor
Remember that TTL's Liberal party resembles OTL's in name only. TTL's Liberal party just about died out in the 1970's due to it retaining a hierarchy dating back to the St. Laurent days. In TTL this dying party elected former PC MP John Jack Horner (who crossed the floor in OTL) and who was a staunch right-wing figure.
Horner maintains control of the Liberal party throughout the 80's leading much of OTL's Reform movement to be incorporated into TTL's Liberal party. I hope this makes the idea of a Mike Harris becoming PM as a Liberal make slightly more sense...
Horner maintains control of the Liberal party throughout the 80's leading much of OTL's Reform movement to be incorporated into TTL's Liberal party. I hope this makes the idea of a Mike Harris becoming PM as a Liberal make slightly more sense...
I would agree. One newspaper columnist called said "Ontario had a pest problem, and they chose the exterminator over the naturalist." Rae was a socialist buffoon who managed to anger absolutely everybody, but when Harris came around he rather fast made Ontarians wish they had gone for Townsend and the Liberals.
So, let's see if I got this right. The NDP walked away from their hard-left 1970s policies and became centrist like Britain's New Labour, while the Liberals in an attempt to survive the aftermath of the hierarchies (which Trudeau doesn't blow to pieces ITTL) goes pretty far to the right, while the Conservatives stay between the two.
Does this mean we still get the hard-right Preston Manning Reform party? With the NEP having happened, butterflying him away is difficult.
Fearless Leader
Donor
No Reform party in TTL because of the Liberal party's swing to the right. Most of OTL's Reform party forms the "New Liberals" in TTL. Also, no NEP In TTL due to the PC's controlling the Canadian Senate.
Probably right. Think about how unpopular John Major was in 1997 and you get the idea, for our British members.
Fearless Leader
Donor
The Election of 1997
The election of 1997 would mean a number of things to a number of different people. To Mike Harris and his “Neo-Liberals” it would mean an end to “The Common Sense Revolution” that they had flouted during the last election. To the Progressive Conservatives it would mark a surprising, if not disappointing change as they failed to regain the leadership of the House of Commons and were instead regulated to being a power broker for the minority government that took shape. For the NDP it would mark the firm success of the moderating trend as it would gain power for the first time since 1979.
The Campaign itself would be a fairly interesting one with Harris and his liberals rallying over the success of the “Common Sense Revolution” and Canadian involvement with the UNOSOM II mission in Somalia. His opponents however criticized his rampant privatization of Canada’s crown corporations and his cut backs to social services in the name of “streamlining”. This coupled with a negative media image would eventually lead to the downfall of the Liberal party.
The real question of the 1997 election was not so much whether or not Harris could extend his term, but which party would form the next government. It finally came down to a showdown between the PC party under newcomer Kim Campbell and NDP centrist Roy Romanow. Both ran aggressive campaigns but in the end only one could win. A series of PC blunders led to the NDP gaining momentum in the closing days of the election. This would eventually net them the win as the final votes were tallied giving the NDP control of the House of Commons with a weak minority government.
The 34th Canadian Parliament
Total Seats: 312
Needed to form Government: 157
NDP (Romanow): 107
Liberal (Harris):83
PC (Campbell):79
Social Credit (Bouchard): 43
The 34th Canadian Parliament would be the first NDP led parliament since the Trudeau era and would mark a substantial victory for the Trudeau faction of the NDP advocating moderation. Canadians would find the NDP government further moderated by being forced to rely on the Progressive Conservative party of all parties to hold a majority of seats within the House of Commons.
This partnership was reinforced in the two parties cooperating within the Canadian Senate. Indeed due to a great deal of political moderation by both parties Canadian governance during this period was dramatically centrist.
Though “Chainsaw Mike’s” neo-Liberal fiscal policies were rolled back, they were not abandoned wholesale as the PC party saw to it that Romanow’s NDP party did not run a deficit. Funds were however, shifted around, with more emphasis given to expanding the Canadian Social Welfare net. The rampant privatization of Canada’s crown corporations was also halted under the Romanow administration though no new corporations were formed during his tenure.
Romanow’s government would be a fairly successful one lasting for 3 years and thereby outlasting many of its predecessors. Despite claims that an NDP government would ruin the Canadian economy, it didn’t and in fact presided over a rapid period of growth (due in no small part to the fiscal conservatism of the previous government). The NDP government also saw the situation in Somalia improve dramatically as the country began to find its feet.
Furthermore Canadians saw their version of the welfare state become one of the best in the world with the NDP’s increased spending in said area being efficiently utilized by the streamlined social services. Also despite their ideological differences the relationship between Romanow and President Kemp remained strong throughout Romanow’s first term.
The tumultuous events of the waning days of 1999 known now as “Y2K”, the year 2000 saw a number of things most importantly, the Canadian Senatorial elections. Yet unlike the last Canadian Senatorial elections, the 2000 elections were less than inspiring. Indeed very little changed with the Liberals maintaining a plurality of the seats but with an NDP/PC coalition in control of the house. However following the senatorial election things began to fall apart as several members of Romanow’s cabinet resigned along with a portion of his caucus to form the Canadian Social Democratic party.
This split within the NDP was poorly handled by the NDP and eventually led to their coalition with the PC party falling apart. A vote of non-confidence was passed in the House of commons and Canadians went to the polls ironically around the same time as their American brethren.
The election of 1997 would mean a number of things to a number of different people. To Mike Harris and his “Neo-Liberals” it would mean an end to “The Common Sense Revolution” that they had flouted during the last election. To the Progressive Conservatives it would mark a surprising, if not disappointing change as they failed to regain the leadership of the House of Commons and were instead regulated to being a power broker for the minority government that took shape. For the NDP it would mark the firm success of the moderating trend as it would gain power for the first time since 1979.
The Campaign itself would be a fairly interesting one with Harris and his liberals rallying over the success of the “Common Sense Revolution” and Canadian involvement with the UNOSOM II mission in Somalia. His opponents however criticized his rampant privatization of Canada’s crown corporations and his cut backs to social services in the name of “streamlining”. This coupled with a negative media image would eventually lead to the downfall of the Liberal party.
The real question of the 1997 election was not so much whether or not Harris could extend his term, but which party would form the next government. It finally came down to a showdown between the PC party under newcomer Kim Campbell and NDP centrist Roy Romanow. Both ran aggressive campaigns but in the end only one could win. A series of PC blunders led to the NDP gaining momentum in the closing days of the election. This would eventually net them the win as the final votes were tallied giving the NDP control of the House of Commons with a weak minority government.
The 34th Canadian Parliament
Total Seats: 312
Needed to form Government: 157
NDP (Romanow): 107
Liberal (Harris):83
PC (Campbell):79
Social Credit (Bouchard): 43
The 34th Canadian Parliament would be the first NDP led parliament since the Trudeau era and would mark a substantial victory for the Trudeau faction of the NDP advocating moderation. Canadians would find the NDP government further moderated by being forced to rely on the Progressive Conservative party of all parties to hold a majority of seats within the House of Commons.
This partnership was reinforced in the two parties cooperating within the Canadian Senate. Indeed due to a great deal of political moderation by both parties Canadian governance during this period was dramatically centrist.
Though “Chainsaw Mike’s” neo-Liberal fiscal policies were rolled back, they were not abandoned wholesale as the PC party saw to it that Romanow’s NDP party did not run a deficit. Funds were however, shifted around, with more emphasis given to expanding the Canadian Social Welfare net. The rampant privatization of Canada’s crown corporations was also halted under the Romanow administration though no new corporations were formed during his tenure.
Romanow’s government would be a fairly successful one lasting for 3 years and thereby outlasting many of its predecessors. Despite claims that an NDP government would ruin the Canadian economy, it didn’t and in fact presided over a rapid period of growth (due in no small part to the fiscal conservatism of the previous government). The NDP government also saw the situation in Somalia improve dramatically as the country began to find its feet.
Furthermore Canadians saw their version of the welfare state become one of the best in the world with the NDP’s increased spending in said area being efficiently utilized by the streamlined social services. Also despite their ideological differences the relationship between Romanow and President Kemp remained strong throughout Romanow’s first term.
The tumultuous events of the waning days of 1999 known now as “Y2K”, the year 2000 saw a number of things most importantly, the Canadian Senatorial elections. Yet unlike the last Canadian Senatorial elections, the 2000 elections were less than inspiring. Indeed very little changed with the Liberals maintaining a plurality of the seats but with an NDP/PC coalition in control of the house. However following the senatorial election things began to fall apart as several members of Romanow’s cabinet resigned along with a portion of his caucus to form the Canadian Social Democratic party.
This split within the NDP was poorly handled by the NDP and eventually led to their coalition with the PC party falling apart. A vote of non-confidence was passed in the House of commons and Canadians went to the polls ironically around the same time as their American brethren.
Fearless Leader
Donor
Final installment! I might do some other appendixes to fill in events around the world but I'm gonna leave it with this...
The Canadian Election of 2000
The Canadian Election of 2000 would see a new competitor enter the scene; the Canadian Social Democratic party. Representing the “Old NDP” or those more affiliated with the left, trade unions, and the socialism that the NDP
used to stand for it hoped to re-ignite hopes for Social Democracy in Canada.
Though prospects for it winning a majority of the seats in the House of Commons were slim it hoped, that like the Social credit party it could win enough seats to establish itself as a powerbroker in a minority parliament.
Yet in the end, the election of 2000 would be a strong endorsement of the NDP’s new centrist approach to governance. The withdrawal of support from the minority government of Romanow by the PC party led to many seeing the PC party in a mercenary light. Indeed clever campaigning by Romanow and the NDP coupled with a strong campaign by the Liberals saw the PC party denied issues and their base shrink.
A key issue that arose in the 2000 election would be the role of the Canadian Armed forces in the broadening war on terror. Since the beginning of UNOSOM terrorist attacks on American and to a limited extent, allied civilian targets had led to the beginning of the “War on Terror” with Sudan and Afghanistan being invaded in addition to operations in Somalia. Unwilling to broaden Canadian involvement without a larger mandate, Romanow pushed for more involvement and a majority mandate to enforce said involvement. Other parties adopted a more subtle line and correspondingly failed to generate as much interest as the Romanow government.
In the end, the election of 2000 produced a surprise no one in Canada was expecting. The NDP would return to office in 2000 yet again only this time with a majority of the seats in the House of Commons. The Canadian Social Democratic Party would fall apart and lose all the seats it had marking a dramatic failure for the party. Mike Harris would be forced to step down as head of the Liberal party in the hopes that someone else would be able to garner more support while the Progressive Conservative party desperately sought new blood and a new image to make itself relevant in the 21st century.
The 35th Canadian Parliament
Total Seats: 323
Needed to form Government: 162
NDP (Romanow): 165
Liberal (Harris):60
PC (Campbell):53
Social Credit (Bouchard): 45
Romanow’s inauguration as the first NDP leader to become PM with a majority government was greeted with a great deal of fanfare and adulation by members of the once beleaguered party. It was seen as a strong endorsement by the Canadian public of the path the NDP had taken during the 1990’s. It was also a sign that Canadians were becoming increasingly concerned with the War on Terror and were willing to become more involved to create a safer world.
Though many critics of the Romanow government would rally against him for expanding Canada’s role in the war, the actions of the Prime Minister in regards to expanding Canada’s role was far more subtle. In a meeting with newly elected President George Bush (Bush 43 in OTL, ITTL he’s the first Bush to get elected) Romanow outlined his vision for Canadian involvement and received the total support of President Bush. Shortly thereafter Prime Minister Romanow and President Bush held a joint press conference where it was announced that the Canadian Armed Forces would be taking over leadership of the UNOSOM II mission that had been ongoing for nearly 9 years. This of course would free up US troops to participate in more active theatres of the War on Terror such as Sudan and Afghanistan.
Unfortunately for both Prime Minister Romanow and President Bush, 2001 would become known as “The Year when the Shit hit the fan”. For before the year was out 2 conflicts would emerge and proceed to escalate to the use of nuclear weapons. The first of which was the Second Korean War, precipitated when a sharp decline in Kim Jong Il’s health allowed hardline militarists to take control of the government and attack South Korea in a fit of utter paranoia. The resulting conflict only lasted 3 months but resulted in the utter destruction of the Korean peninsula. Even Japan would not escape unscathed as it was hit with a number of North Korean missiles.
Canadian involvement in the actual conflict itself would be quite minimal, with the HMCS Mackenzie King and her taskforce arriving late on the scene and only launching a handful of sorties as well as performing ASW and S&R missions. Following the conflict, Canadian troops would be instrumental in facilitating relief efforts throughout the peninsula. Unfortunately, these relief efforts, especially those in the northern portion of the country nearly triggered another, more horrific conflict. Uneasy about the destruction of the DPRK, China sought to maintain a status quo and was dismayed when President Bush announced the creation of the unified Korean Recovery Zone. War seemed imminent and were it not for the intervention of the Canadian diplomatic corps and the creation of the Yalu DMZ, World War III would have been thrust upon the world.
Even more horrific than the disaster in Korea though would be the Indo-Pakistani “December War” of 2001. A terrorist attack on the Indian Parliament would lead to a conflict that quickly escalated to a nuclear exchange. Being heavily outmatched Pakistan definitely received the short end of the stick and was for all intents and purposes removed as a nation. India however didn’t get off any easier as the Northern portion of the country was also thoroughly devastated. Indeed the Indian subcontinent would see poverty, disease, and mortality rates hit record levels due to the effects of this continent. Millions died and would continue to die as the effects of the fallout became apparent.
As 2001 drew to a close the world was forced to pick itself up and recover collectively from the multitude of disasters. 2002 would see the beginnings of this as NATO and UN forces moved into what was formerly Pakistan to secure a stable supply line into Afghanistan as well as administer humanitarian aid. It would also see the 10 year UNOSOM II mission draw to a close as attention shifted elsewhere in the world. Canadian troops formerly involved in Somalia would find themselves increasingly busy in both Pakistan and Korea. To compensate for this PM Romanow signed into effect legislation that would increase the Royal Canadian Army’s standing strength to 75,000 to cope with the troubling realities facing the world.
2003 would see the War on Terror come home to Canada, as Islamic militants detonated an ex-Pakistani nuclear weapon in the Port of Vancouver. The damage was horrific and the loss of life severe, but mercifully lighter than had the terrorists managed to reach their intended destination of Vancouver or Seattle. Following the detonation in Vancouver, Romanow would enact legislation that would ensure the security of his country. Border patrols, customs, and Port Security would be increased across North America to ensure that no more “Vancouvers” would ever happen again.
Romanow would continue to serve out his term after the attack on Vancouver and continue to actively support both the NDP’s domestic and foreign agenda. However unbeknownst to many, his health started to deteriorate sharply in 2003/2004. This would lead to his resignation in 2005 and yet another NDP leadership convention in which Bob Rae successfully won the position of Party Leader setting the stage for the Election of 2005.
The Election of 2005
2005 was a year of changes for the governments of North America. Despite a fairly decent performance former vice-president George Bush was limited to a single term in office in 2004, ending 12 years of Republican government with the victory of Democratic candidate General Wesley Clark in 2004. In 2005 the Canadian public would opt for a similar change.
The primary issue of the election would prove to be Canada’s involvement in the War on Terror. As NDP leader Bob Rae continued to rally for the maintenance of the status quo, Canadian casualties in Sudan and what was formerly Pakistan began to mount. The Liberal party under the fresh leadership of former BC MP, Stockwell Day proposed a continuing Canadian presence worldwide coupled with cuts to social programs to help eliminate the deficits that had sprung up during the latter years of the NDP government.
On the other side of the Spectrum the Canadian Social Democrat party, having been denied seats in the last election, sprang up as an entirely grassroots anti-war movement running a patchwork of candidates around the country. Their agenda and fiery speeches garnered much attention and would prove to be a deathblow to the current NDP government under Bob Rae with their revamped Vietnam styled chant “Rae, Rae, How many kids did you kill today?”
With such a contested election, the time was apparently right for none other than the Progressive Conservative party, “Canada’s Governing Party” to surge back onto the scene under their leader, Kim Campbell. Campbell exuded confidence and charisma and unlike elections past launched an ambitious nationwide campaign. The PC party soon began to soar in the polls in a phenomenon known as “Campbellmania” as their center right message coupled with firm foreign policy objectives took hold with the Canadian public. Allusions to Campbell being Canada’s “Iron Lady” also proved to be helpful as conservatives flocked to the PC party in droves.
In the end, a weak campaign by Bob Rae, coupled with the resurgence of the CSDP, and the Progressive Conservative Party would lead to the defeat of the centrist NDP government. In it’s place Kim Campbell would be inaugurated as Canada’s first female Prime Minister with a narrow majority government. As Canadians looked forward to the future with uncertainty they hoped that they’d made the right choice in their choice of Prime Minister...
The Canadian Election of 2000
The Canadian Election of 2000 would see a new competitor enter the scene; the Canadian Social Democratic party. Representing the “Old NDP” or those more affiliated with the left, trade unions, and the socialism that the NDP
used to stand for it hoped to re-ignite hopes for Social Democracy in Canada.
Though prospects for it winning a majority of the seats in the House of Commons were slim it hoped, that like the Social credit party it could win enough seats to establish itself as a powerbroker in a minority parliament.
Yet in the end, the election of 2000 would be a strong endorsement of the NDP’s new centrist approach to governance. The withdrawal of support from the minority government of Romanow by the PC party led to many seeing the PC party in a mercenary light. Indeed clever campaigning by Romanow and the NDP coupled with a strong campaign by the Liberals saw the PC party denied issues and their base shrink.
A key issue that arose in the 2000 election would be the role of the Canadian Armed forces in the broadening war on terror. Since the beginning of UNOSOM terrorist attacks on American and to a limited extent, allied civilian targets had led to the beginning of the “War on Terror” with Sudan and Afghanistan being invaded in addition to operations in Somalia. Unwilling to broaden Canadian involvement without a larger mandate, Romanow pushed for more involvement and a majority mandate to enforce said involvement. Other parties adopted a more subtle line and correspondingly failed to generate as much interest as the Romanow government.
In the end, the election of 2000 produced a surprise no one in Canada was expecting. The NDP would return to office in 2000 yet again only this time with a majority of the seats in the House of Commons. The Canadian Social Democratic Party would fall apart and lose all the seats it had marking a dramatic failure for the party. Mike Harris would be forced to step down as head of the Liberal party in the hopes that someone else would be able to garner more support while the Progressive Conservative party desperately sought new blood and a new image to make itself relevant in the 21st century.
The 35th Canadian Parliament
Total Seats: 323
Needed to form Government: 162
NDP (Romanow): 165
Liberal (Harris):60
PC (Campbell):53
Social Credit (Bouchard): 45
Romanow’s inauguration as the first NDP leader to become PM with a majority government was greeted with a great deal of fanfare and adulation by members of the once beleaguered party. It was seen as a strong endorsement by the Canadian public of the path the NDP had taken during the 1990’s. It was also a sign that Canadians were becoming increasingly concerned with the War on Terror and were willing to become more involved to create a safer world.
Though many critics of the Romanow government would rally against him for expanding Canada’s role in the war, the actions of the Prime Minister in regards to expanding Canada’s role was far more subtle. In a meeting with newly elected President George Bush (Bush 43 in OTL, ITTL he’s the first Bush to get elected) Romanow outlined his vision for Canadian involvement and received the total support of President Bush. Shortly thereafter Prime Minister Romanow and President Bush held a joint press conference where it was announced that the Canadian Armed Forces would be taking over leadership of the UNOSOM II mission that had been ongoing for nearly 9 years. This of course would free up US troops to participate in more active theatres of the War on Terror such as Sudan and Afghanistan.
Unfortunately for both Prime Minister Romanow and President Bush, 2001 would become known as “The Year when the Shit hit the fan”. For before the year was out 2 conflicts would emerge and proceed to escalate to the use of nuclear weapons. The first of which was the Second Korean War, precipitated when a sharp decline in Kim Jong Il’s health allowed hardline militarists to take control of the government and attack South Korea in a fit of utter paranoia. The resulting conflict only lasted 3 months but resulted in the utter destruction of the Korean peninsula. Even Japan would not escape unscathed as it was hit with a number of North Korean missiles.
Canadian involvement in the actual conflict itself would be quite minimal, with the HMCS Mackenzie King and her taskforce arriving late on the scene and only launching a handful of sorties as well as performing ASW and S&R missions. Following the conflict, Canadian troops would be instrumental in facilitating relief efforts throughout the peninsula. Unfortunately, these relief efforts, especially those in the northern portion of the country nearly triggered another, more horrific conflict. Uneasy about the destruction of the DPRK, China sought to maintain a status quo and was dismayed when President Bush announced the creation of the unified Korean Recovery Zone. War seemed imminent and were it not for the intervention of the Canadian diplomatic corps and the creation of the Yalu DMZ, World War III would have been thrust upon the world.
Even more horrific than the disaster in Korea though would be the Indo-Pakistani “December War” of 2001. A terrorist attack on the Indian Parliament would lead to a conflict that quickly escalated to a nuclear exchange. Being heavily outmatched Pakistan definitely received the short end of the stick and was for all intents and purposes removed as a nation. India however didn’t get off any easier as the Northern portion of the country was also thoroughly devastated. Indeed the Indian subcontinent would see poverty, disease, and mortality rates hit record levels due to the effects of this continent. Millions died and would continue to die as the effects of the fallout became apparent.
As 2001 drew to a close the world was forced to pick itself up and recover collectively from the multitude of disasters. 2002 would see the beginnings of this as NATO and UN forces moved into what was formerly Pakistan to secure a stable supply line into Afghanistan as well as administer humanitarian aid. It would also see the 10 year UNOSOM II mission draw to a close as attention shifted elsewhere in the world. Canadian troops formerly involved in Somalia would find themselves increasingly busy in both Pakistan and Korea. To compensate for this PM Romanow signed into effect legislation that would increase the Royal Canadian Army’s standing strength to 75,000 to cope with the troubling realities facing the world.
2003 would see the War on Terror come home to Canada, as Islamic militants detonated an ex-Pakistani nuclear weapon in the Port of Vancouver. The damage was horrific and the loss of life severe, but mercifully lighter than had the terrorists managed to reach their intended destination of Vancouver or Seattle. Following the detonation in Vancouver, Romanow would enact legislation that would ensure the security of his country. Border patrols, customs, and Port Security would be increased across North America to ensure that no more “Vancouvers” would ever happen again.
Romanow would continue to serve out his term after the attack on Vancouver and continue to actively support both the NDP’s domestic and foreign agenda. However unbeknownst to many, his health started to deteriorate sharply in 2003/2004. This would lead to his resignation in 2005 and yet another NDP leadership convention in which Bob Rae successfully won the position of Party Leader setting the stage for the Election of 2005.
The Election of 2005
2005 was a year of changes for the governments of North America. Despite a fairly decent performance former vice-president George Bush was limited to a single term in office in 2004, ending 12 years of Republican government with the victory of Democratic candidate General Wesley Clark in 2004. In 2005 the Canadian public would opt for a similar change.
The primary issue of the election would prove to be Canada’s involvement in the War on Terror. As NDP leader Bob Rae continued to rally for the maintenance of the status quo, Canadian casualties in Sudan and what was formerly Pakistan began to mount. The Liberal party under the fresh leadership of former BC MP, Stockwell Day proposed a continuing Canadian presence worldwide coupled with cuts to social programs to help eliminate the deficits that had sprung up during the latter years of the NDP government.
On the other side of the Spectrum the Canadian Social Democrat party, having been denied seats in the last election, sprang up as an entirely grassroots anti-war movement running a patchwork of candidates around the country. Their agenda and fiery speeches garnered much attention and would prove to be a deathblow to the current NDP government under Bob Rae with their revamped Vietnam styled chant “Rae, Rae, How many kids did you kill today?”
With such a contested election, the time was apparently right for none other than the Progressive Conservative party, “Canada’s Governing Party” to surge back onto the scene under their leader, Kim Campbell. Campbell exuded confidence and charisma and unlike elections past launched an ambitious nationwide campaign. The PC party soon began to soar in the polls in a phenomenon known as “Campbellmania” as their center right message coupled with firm foreign policy objectives took hold with the Canadian public. Allusions to Campbell being Canada’s “Iron Lady” also proved to be helpful as conservatives flocked to the PC party in droves.
In the end, a weak campaign by Bob Rae, coupled with the resurgence of the CSDP, and the Progressive Conservative Party would lead to the defeat of the centrist NDP government. In it’s place Kim Campbell would be inaugurated as Canada’s first female Prime Minister with a narrow majority government. As Canadians looked forward to the future with uncertainty they hoped that they’d made the right choice in their choice of Prime Minister...
Unless he's playing on the stereotypes of Québécois drivers.
Not stereotypes. Or at least, Montreal drivers (don't care if they're English or French). Almost been killed twice, neither my fault. First guy failed to signal pulling into one of those long entrance gas stations that allow you to enter at full speed and I, being on my bike going down a hill, went over his hood. Second girls decides to not to slow down or bother to check for people crossing on her turn left on a green and clips me as I jump trying to get out of her way.
Also no one signals, they ignore people on bikes, and they seek to hurt pedestrians on purpose.
Not only math, but the brains to talk to people
.(For the people who don't get the joke Joe Clark was elected PM of Canada with a minority PC government in 1979. He then brought forward what was widely considered the correct budget for the times—except the home mortgage deduction thing—and failed to even try to gain the support of Social Credit's six seats.
If he had a grasp of math, or the brains to spend a couple days securing the support of Social Credit, he would have remained Prime Minister of Canada and we would have been spared Trudeau's pretty bad last term).
Broadbent wasn't really socialist. In fact Broadbent's personal popularity carried the NDP quite far. You mention his charisma (which was more like: "I'm the only honest and normal guy in politics") but then you mention him talking radical socialist policies. Frankly the NDP moderated quite a bit under Broadbent.
They can still lose, but I think it might be more Trudeau sabotaging Broadbent than the NDP returning to socialist policy.
Oh I hate Mike Harris because the man had no idea what to do with infrastructure and cites but economically—and despite increasing spending, just at a slower clip than Bob Rae—Ontario really did need something to counteract Rae's massive deficits.
No F-15E in this timeline as the Air Force buys the F-14 as well. The F-14 comes out with a land & a strike package, and the F-15 doesn't exist. Some kind of full retrofit Super Tomcat likely exists though.
That said, the F-17 appears to be a F-18 / F-16 type of plane. Where's the heavy fighter successor for the ATL F-14?
Well, technically around 70% of the population by the end hated Mike Harris. The man was elected to two majority governments, after all. I actually liked him for the CSR, but hate him for screwing Toronto (for no reason) and giving away the 407 for pennies on the dollar.
Anyway, great timeline. What's the US Presidential line-up? Reagan 76-'84, ??? (Teddy Kennedy? Mario Cuomo?), Kemp '92-'00, W. Bush (unlikely I think), Clark '04- (even more unlikely).
Joe Clark wasn't really stupid - but. 1) he wasn't really smart either, and 2) he made some really stupid decisions - see quote above.
For US readers, remember some of the 'clumsy football jock' image that got stuck to President Ford? Now, remove the competent football player part of that and you may have Joe Clark.
To be fair to the man, he was one of the best team player PMs out there, unlike Trudeau, Mulroney, Harper, Chretien, etc, who all tried to behave like US Presidents and run the whole show.
A few thoughts and points:
#1-There is no "Royal Canadian Army". The Army is simply referred to as the Canadian Army. The Royal title is only applied to the RCAF and RAN because of the historic role of the Crown building those branches themselves. There may be individual regiments that are "Royal", but the entire organization itself is not.
#2-Naming the Midway class CV "Mackenzie King" would be inappropriate in the extreme. Generally, the only time RN/RCN vessels are named after people is if they are royalty.
#3-Go to Quebec. Rent a car. Drive like you've always wanted to drive but were too afraid to do on streets where people you love walk. The Quebec license plate is a passport to be a crappy driver. Heck, a difficult part of driving a Quebec plated car normally is that when cops see you using your turn signals, stopping at lights and generally following good driving habits, especially if you cross over into Ontario, they assume that the car is stolen.
#1-There is no "Royal Canadian Army". The Army is simply referred to as the Canadian Army. The Royal title is only applied to the RCAF and RAN because of the historic role of the Crown building those branches themselves. There may be individual regiments that are "Royal", but the entire organization itself is not.
#2-Naming the Midway class CV "Mackenzie King" would be inappropriate in the extreme. Generally, the only time RN/RCN vessels are named after people is if they are royalty.
#3-Go to Quebec. Rent a car. Drive like you've always wanted to drive but were too afraid to do on streets where people you love walk. The Quebec license plate is a passport to be a crappy driver. Heck, a difficult part of driving a Quebec plated car normally is that when cops see you using your turn signals, stopping at lights and generally following good driving habits, especially if you cross over into Ontario, they assume that the car is stolen.
You NUKED VANCOUVER
I do hope I don't live in the fall-out area that such a bomb would cause.
Otherwise, I love the TL. Very detailed, and is VERY plausible. One of the top Canadian ATLs!
Seconded! good job
You NUKED VANCOUVER
I do hope I don't live in the fall-out area that such a bomb would cause.
Otherwise, I love the TL. Very detailed, and is VERY plausible. One of the top Canadian ATLs!
Keep in mind, the PORT of Vancouver. In other words, depending on the size of the bomb, the destruction could not be as bad as one would assume it would be.
And, I might also point out that Vancouver is not a major wheel in Canada's economy as Toronto, Montreal and Calgary are. If you wanted to make an impact, you'd want to direct that bomb to Toronto or Montreal.
Assuming that's the Tsawassen/Delta super-terminal (and not False Creek/Coal Harbour/Burrard Inlet), that's barely 60-70km from the downtown core, and encompasses Richmond, Burnaby, and a great deal of the suburbs. Not to mention, damn close to Seattle.
If it is Coal Harbour/False Creek, which is downtown Vancouver, we no longer HAVE a Vancouver. That's right next door to the downtown core, so bye-bye downtown Vancouver, Vancouver proper, Richmond, Burnaby, North Vancouver, West Vancouver and Port Coquitlam. I imagine the fall-out would fall into Surrey, New Westminster and most of the Fraser Valley area.
Considering the fact that since I live near the University of British Columbia, which is also pretty close to downtown Vancouver, I'd be toast. I mean, I like the TL and all, but I do hope that I stay alive long enough to have a proper life first before becoming a statistic.
I beg to differ. The Port of Vancouver is Canada's gateway to Asia. We handle all Pacific shipping for the rest of Canada, and we Goddamn make a difference in the economy.
Wikipedia said:
Fifth-largest port in North America, and you say we don't make an impact? When all the goods shipments, fuels and materials flowing to and from Asia stop, Toronto and Montreal are going to feel the hurt. That's $43 billion annually in trade that's going to get disrupted by the nuke.
It's got world-reaching effect, actually. The terrorists picked a good place to make their stand.
EDIT: Possible effects of the nuclear weapon.
Assuming a yield of ~10kt, as Pakistan claims their nuclear warhead achieved in the underground tests at Balochistan, it's perfectly plausible to have fallout effect an area of about 50km, and give people in that area a lethal dose of radiation. This, using the OTL number of around 1.5 million residents in Vancouver, will kill off approximately 2/3rds of them, I would say, including moi.
Last edited:
^ Point taken, but Burrard Inlet's port is not as heavily used as the Super Terminal. A 10 kt blast there would level everything for a solid mile, torch everything for another mile and blow out windows in Seattle and Vancouver. You guys are assuming the fallout would be enough within a 50km radius to give everyone around fatal radiation doses, which is inaccurate. The fallout from such a weapon, which is not packing that much radioactive material, would be plenty to make a great many people sick, but you wouldn't have a million fatalities from it.
Great Canadian ATL Fearless.
You wouldn't even exist roastpuff due to butterflies (I'm assuming your 49 or younger).
You wouldn't even exist roastpuff due to butterflies (I'm assuming your 49 or younger).
Fearless Leader
Donor
The first of several appendixes
Appendix I: US Presidents
Though initially, the construction of the Avro Arrow does very little to affect the United States and it’s politics. Eventually the ripple effects, especially within Canadian politics, begin to affect political matters south of the border. This is most prominently seen in the friendship between Canadian PM E Davie Fulton and American President Richard Nixon. This close friendship goes a long way to tempering Nixon’s rampant paranoia which serves to inadvertently butterfly away the infamous Watergate Scandal that occurred in our timeline.
Without Watergate, Nixon proceeds to serve out the remainder of his second term. Without being distracted by the Watergate Scandal, he is much more able to respond to pressing issues such as the end of hostilities in Vietnam, and the Arab Oil Embargo in 1973. Though not a spectacular president, Nixon finishes his term with his head held high and reasonable approval ratings.
Nixon is succeeded in 1976 by none other than California governor Ronald Reagan who aptly beats out all other Republican candidates for the nomination and then Georgia governor Jimmy Carter for the presidency.
Reagan’s tenure in office is a welcome change from Nixon, his charisma and ability to project strength seems to give America new energy. Unfortunately for Reagan, despite his projection of strength the American economy took a downturn in the late 1970’s. Reagan’s proposed solution to the economic downturn dubbed “Reaganomics” was unpopular with many Republicans leading to his nomination being contested during the 1980 Republican National Convention.
The Election of 1980 would see Reagan win nomination yet again, despite the best efforts of George Bush Senior, and face none other than former Alabama Governor George Wallace (who hasn’t been shot in TTL). Dissatisfied with the status quo, America votes in Wallace and the Democratic Party. President Wallace’s tenure in office from 1981-1989 would be a good one for the American people. During those years the USSR would begin to collapse marking American victory in the Cold War. It would also see a massive American arms build up as Wallace sought “to make America mighty once more!”
Wallace would be succeeded by his second Vice President, Daniel Patrick Moynihan (his first Henry M. “Scoop” Jackson having died during Wallace’s first term) in receiving the Democratic nomination in 1988. Moynihan would win the election by a small margin, coming out on top over Republican Candidate Rob Dole. Moynihan’s presidency would be an interesting one, and would see the collapse of the Soviet Union as well as the beginnings of the War on Terrorism as the US began to intervene in Somalia. However poor economic policies would lead to Moynihan losing the 1992 election to the Republican Dark Horse Candidate Jack Kemp.
Kemp’s time in the Oval office would see him preside over the beginnings of what would eventually become known as “The War on Terror”. Following the Battle of Mogadishu in 1993, Kemp would announce to the world along with Canadian PM Mike Harris that they would not abandon Somalia and would continue to support the UN backed government taking shape there. This announcement however would be followed by Islamic terrorists ramping up operations against American targets worldwide.
These attacks would eventually culminate with an attack on American soil when in 1994 a series of large explosives were detonated under the North Tower of the World Trade Center. These explosives would lead to the North Tower’s foundation being fatally compromised and the building collapsing onto the second WTC tower. The loss of life would be horrific and would lead President Kemp to expand American operations in the Middle East to encompass both Sudan and Afghanistan. This hardline stance against terror would lead to the GOP winning a majority in Congress in ’94 and Kemp being re-elected in 1996.
Kemp’s second term would continue to see America expand her role world-wide as well as America’s military transform itself to better handle insurgencies like the ones they found themselves confronted with in Somalia, Sudan, and Afghanistan. Efforts were also made to cultivate numerous local allies and to isolate nations providing support to terrorists. Kemp would also push heavily for the United States to become “energy independent” leading to the construction of numerous new refineries, nuclear powerplants, and coal-to-oil plants.
Kemp would finish his term with some of the highest approval records in the post-war era and would be succeeded by none other than his Vice President George W. Bush (son of unsuccessful GOP candidate George Herbert Walker Bush). Bush would win re-election against Democratic candidate Al Gore by a fair margin and would govern the country from 2001-2005. However Bush’s term would see several events, such as the 2nd Korean War, and the Indo-Pakistani December War and numerous instances of incompetence.
Perceived as incompetent, George Bush struggled in the 2004 election, eventually losing to Democratic new-comer former General Wesley Clark a veteran of the war on Terror who promised to govern the nation aptly and with honor.
US Presidents
OTL-
Richard Nixon (1968-1976)
Ronald Reagan (1976-1980)
George Wallace (1980-1988)
Daniel P. Moynihan (1988-1992)
Jack Kemp (1992-2000)
George Bush (2000-2004)
Wesley Clark (2004-)
Appendix I: US Presidents
Though initially, the construction of the Avro Arrow does very little to affect the United States and it’s politics. Eventually the ripple effects, especially within Canadian politics, begin to affect political matters south of the border. This is most prominently seen in the friendship between Canadian PM E Davie Fulton and American President Richard Nixon. This close friendship goes a long way to tempering Nixon’s rampant paranoia which serves to inadvertently butterfly away the infamous Watergate Scandal that occurred in our timeline.
Without Watergate, Nixon proceeds to serve out the remainder of his second term. Without being distracted by the Watergate Scandal, he is much more able to respond to pressing issues such as the end of hostilities in Vietnam, and the Arab Oil Embargo in 1973. Though not a spectacular president, Nixon finishes his term with his head held high and reasonable approval ratings.
Nixon is succeeded in 1976 by none other than California governor Ronald Reagan who aptly beats out all other Republican candidates for the nomination and then Georgia governor Jimmy Carter for the presidency.
Reagan’s tenure in office is a welcome change from Nixon, his charisma and ability to project strength seems to give America new energy. Unfortunately for Reagan, despite his projection of strength the American economy took a downturn in the late 1970’s. Reagan’s proposed solution to the economic downturn dubbed “Reaganomics” was unpopular with many Republicans leading to his nomination being contested during the 1980 Republican National Convention.
The Election of 1980 would see Reagan win nomination yet again, despite the best efforts of George Bush Senior, and face none other than former Alabama Governor George Wallace (who hasn’t been shot in TTL). Dissatisfied with the status quo, America votes in Wallace and the Democratic Party. President Wallace’s tenure in office from 1981-1989 would be a good one for the American people. During those years the USSR would begin to collapse marking American victory in the Cold War. It would also see a massive American arms build up as Wallace sought “to make America mighty once more!”
Wallace would be succeeded by his second Vice President, Daniel Patrick Moynihan (his first Henry M. “Scoop” Jackson having died during Wallace’s first term) in receiving the Democratic nomination in 1988. Moynihan would win the election by a small margin, coming out on top over Republican Candidate Rob Dole. Moynihan’s presidency would be an interesting one, and would see the collapse of the Soviet Union as well as the beginnings of the War on Terrorism as the US began to intervene in Somalia. However poor economic policies would lead to Moynihan losing the 1992 election to the Republican Dark Horse Candidate Jack Kemp.
Kemp’s time in the Oval office would see him preside over the beginnings of what would eventually become known as “The War on Terror”. Following the Battle of Mogadishu in 1993, Kemp would announce to the world along with Canadian PM Mike Harris that they would not abandon Somalia and would continue to support the UN backed government taking shape there. This announcement however would be followed by Islamic terrorists ramping up operations against American targets worldwide.
These attacks would eventually culminate with an attack on American soil when in 1994 a series of large explosives were detonated under the North Tower of the World Trade Center. These explosives would lead to the North Tower’s foundation being fatally compromised and the building collapsing onto the second WTC tower. The loss of life would be horrific and would lead President Kemp to expand American operations in the Middle East to encompass both Sudan and Afghanistan. This hardline stance against terror would lead to the GOP winning a majority in Congress in ’94 and Kemp being re-elected in 1996.
Kemp’s second term would continue to see America expand her role world-wide as well as America’s military transform itself to better handle insurgencies like the ones they found themselves confronted with in Somalia, Sudan, and Afghanistan. Efforts were also made to cultivate numerous local allies and to isolate nations providing support to terrorists. Kemp would also push heavily for the United States to become “energy independent” leading to the construction of numerous new refineries, nuclear powerplants, and coal-to-oil plants.
Kemp would finish his term with some of the highest approval records in the post-war era and would be succeeded by none other than his Vice President George W. Bush (son of unsuccessful GOP candidate George Herbert Walker Bush). Bush would win re-election against Democratic candidate Al Gore by a fair margin and would govern the country from 2001-2005. However Bush’s term would see several events, such as the 2nd Korean War, and the Indo-Pakistani December War and numerous instances of incompetence.
Perceived as incompetent, George Bush struggled in the 2004 election, eventually losing to Democratic new-comer former General Wesley Clark a veteran of the war on Terror who promised to govern the nation aptly and with honor.
US Presidents
OTL-
Richard Nixon (1968-1976)
Ronald Reagan (1976-1980)
George Wallace (1980-1988)
Daniel P. Moynihan (1988-1992)
Jack Kemp (1992-2000)
George Bush (2000-2004)
Wesley Clark (2004-)