Was there a time where they could have shown off there talents but didn't?
Augustus and livia have a son
- Thread starter calvin1417
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scholar
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Not really, this comes from the geographical destiny argument that is too often followed in modern historiography. Germany poses some problems, true, but none that were uniquely difficult. Furthermore, the loss of Germany was not do to administration, communications, or logistics. It was the systematic isolation and destruction of Roman legions at a time when Rome could ill afford it. It was the cultural and political ramifications of that defeat that ultimately resulted in Augustus Caesar forbidding any further venture into Germania. Britannia offered greater strategic difficulties. As for Roman roads and infrastructure, again that would only be a true concern if it had stopped similar expansion in lands such as northern Gaul and Britannia, which were just as inhospitable to Rome, if not more so until they were beaten and incorporated. If Germania could be broken and held for a few generations, then it would be like a northern Roman Dacia - probably one of the first regions to be abandoned due to outside pressure, but very readily incorporated in a time of relative peace and prosperity.
I disagree with this.
Germany east of the Weser river really posed specific geographic problems. It was not much less than a network of marshes, swamps and forests, scarcely populated.
Rome extended its empire over regions that had enough resources to more or less balance the costs. And usually it waited until there was a solid enough ground for lastable conquest before conquering those lands. The development of economic relations occured before the political conquest and transformation of a territory into a roman province. Client statehood usually was the prerequisite step before becoming a province and some client States never became provinces or some provinces ceased to be provinces to turn back to client State status when Rome thought more appropriate.
And, last, Rome almost never ceased campaigning in Germany. It did it under the rule of Tiberius, under Nero, under Domitian, and then never ceased to do it from the reign of Aurelian the pious on.
scholar
Banned
It was mostly forest, with sporadic marshes if I am recalling my ancient geography correctly - which is almost the exact same in northern Gaul and parts of Britannia. The territory being loosely populated is the most damning aspect of Germany at the time, but I am curious as to just how loosely populated the region truly was compared to other border regions of the Roman state.
So what other things would this early Trajan son of Augustus do? Also what is the best European boarder for the empire in the long run? And borders in general?
I still believe, that the Elbe border, perhaps including Marcomannia up to the Sudetes and Carpathians is the better border. Not because it is much shorter. Actually it is not! And surely not because Germania is wealthy, easy to romanise or free of trouble.
But because more germano-romans are longterm beneficial to the empire. And most importantly, the dangerous free german population is reduced by perhaps more than 50%. And also very important: this infertile land makes a perfect buffer zone and battlefield to avoid any destruction to the wealthy Gallia and Northern Italy. Exactly like Augustus' initial plan, before the pannonian revolt throwed it over.
A roman Germania Magna would also avoid german piracy (starting soonly later in the mid 1st century AD) and better secure Britannia this way. Well, the much better idea and very shorter border is of course to never invade Britannia at all!
I do not believe, that a roman empire up to the Elbe would be overstretched up to an extent, that it becomes ungovernable, just because of one province more. If historians talk about a too much overstretched empire, they usually do not mean the geography. They are talking about the political dimension of this huge empire. A few more provinces in the north are not changing or escalating the fact, that the roman empire was already overstretched since the 2nd century BC. So how to avoid overstretching the capabilities not just of an ancient republic but also of an ancient monarchy?
The much more interesting question would be about the best eastern border of the Empire! And if you expand here to a reasonable extent (eastern Zagros Mountains), you do overstretch the empire definately. Again not that much geographically, but politically. And in this case also culturally with fully unknown ramifications.
Of course you do not need a son of Augustus to let a roman emperor get the idea to march back to the Elbe. The more interesting question is, why should a son of Augustus or any other emperor get this idea? He could not know, how important these germans would become 2-300 years later.
And the funny thing is. Just a border up to the Elbe in the North and the Zagros mountains in the East would not avoid the Fall of the Empire! Because it is already politically overstretched. With or without Germania. The external threats are just one half of a medal called the Fall of Rome. The easier to solve and way less dangerous half! From an intellectual point of view it is the much less challenging part.
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The constitution of the roman republic, the principate and the late empire was not appropriate to govern an empire of this size without self-destruction by usurpation in the long run. Well, the principate did very well. But just until the empire came under serious pressure.
Well, this being Augustus, he would be brilliant and die in freak accident at 14.
Drusus: Dies from falling off a horse in Germania
Agrippa: Dies of sudden illness
Lucius: Dies of sudden illness
Marcellus: Dies of sudden illness
Gaius: Dies from wounds in a weird battle in the east
Agrippa Posthumus: Murdered almost immediately after Augustus's death
Germanicus: Dies of sudden illness
But I'm the op so I won't let this hypothetical genius die
Agustustus had really bad luck with heirs and other family members
You know thank you for that. This is probably the 1000th livia did it joke I've heard. I going to marathon I Claudius to celebrate.