And if the LW have R4M in 1943 ?

This started in the Luftwaffe jets in the war ...


If Germany develop an start to mass produce the R4M in 1943, just equip the FW190 A-6 (the model of that era) with 24 / 48 each (the R4M weight 3.85kg each)....
In 43 the allies don't have enough escorts (if any) and FW-190 with R4M are pure death for bombers....
Bonus, the R4M don't need strategic materials that are rare.....
Is a cheap, easy to mass produce weapon, that can be used by almost any LW aircraft of the time.


Ideas of the impact in the air war ?
 

Bearcat

Banned
Americans are forced to night bombing. No decimation of the Luftwaffe and Second Front in '44. Damage to Germany is far less.... until August 1945. Massive raids distract the LW and take serous losses, but it's the loners straggling through with their nuclear payloads that bring Germany to it's knees. Also by 1945, the P-51s and P-80s are carrying their own air-to-air rockets, maybe even with primitive guidance.
 
The standard load for FW-190 would likely be 12 rockets. Very dangerous to unescorted bombers in tight defensive blocks.

ps1rd2.jpg
 
Not a huge amount unless they can make them work at night (wern't they a day-only weapon??)

The USAAF wasnt that much more accurate in day then the RAF were at night (by 1944), so we see huge multiple night raids doing nearly as much damage as OTL (we might even see regular raids big enough to cause firestorms regularly, which would be very nasty for german civilians)

The LW fighter arm is destroyed after Normany by the hordes of allied fighters, unless they stay in their hangers which is rather pointless...
 
I strongly disagree with the assertions made so far

although losses would be even worse than the already prohibitive losses that brought daylight raids over Germany to a halt after Black Thursday (2nd Schweinfurt raid), the fact is that in early 1944 very large numbers of P51s are going to be available. If necessary, you might see raids with fighter escorts at a 3:1 level (3 or 4 fighters per bomber) that hit only high value targets, but raids will continue and the heavy attrition of the Luftwaffe fighter force will too.

There are no panacae options for the Luftwaffe. The best book or timeline I have seen that gives what is likely the best case for a relatively successful Luftwaffe is the book
"Luftwaffe Victorious", and it does not give the Luftwaffe a victory although it does an excellent job showing how a better Luftwaffe would have changed the direction of the war.
http://www.amazon.com/Luftwaffe-Victorious-Mike-Spick/dp/185367611X
 
The 1943 bomber offensive ends earlier because of higher losses. Instead of October 1943, maybe it's July or some other month. Americans switch to nighttime bombing to compensate. The need for long range escort fighters becomes even more imperative. With the arrival of the P-51 Mustangs in early 1944, the US resumes daytime precision bombing.

The FW-190s and other planes with R4Ms encounter the Mustangs in February/March 1944. The rockets don't help much against the Mustangs, and the Luftwaffe is massacred more or less as it was in our timeline.

By June 6, 1944, the Western Allies have air superiority much like they did IOTL. War plays out as normal.

In other words, I don't see many changes. These kinds of temporary tactical advantages aren't big enough to change the strategic situation. It just buys Germany a little bit of breathing room. In less than a year, Allied numbers and technical improvements serve to cancel out the earlier German advantage.
 
The 1943 bomber offensive ends earlier because of higher losses. Instead of October 1943, maybe it's July or some other month. Americans switch to nighttime bombing to compensate. The need for long range escort fighters becomes even more imperative. With the arrival of the P-51 Mustangs in early 1944, the US resumes daytime precision bombing.

The FW-190s and other planes with R4Ms encounter the Mustangs in February/March 1944. The rockets don't help much against the Mustangs, and the Luftwaffe is massacred more or less as it was in our timeline.

By June 6, 1944, the Western Allies have air superiority much like they did IOTL. War plays out as normal.

In other words, I don't see many changes. These kinds of temporary tactical advantages aren't big enough to change the strategic situation. It just buys Germany a little bit of breathing room. In less than a year, Allied numbers and technical improvements serve to cancel out the earlier German advantage.

no way that Hap Arnold was going to switch to night bombing. If necessary the American heavies switch to theater targets in France and Italy (those submarine bases would get hit a lot) and perhaps more B24s are allocated to the Battle of the Atlantic and Pacific Theaters in the interim. But doctrine, training and equipment would have required many months to change and carry out, and the Americans knew that the P51 was coming by late 1943.
 
One extra advantage to LW, is that because early use of the R4M, they don't need to put the 30mm gun (MK103/108) in almost all fighters, and can otherwise have fighters optimized to dogfight (13mm HMG / 20mm Guns) that after a first pass against bombers have good weapons against other fighters.... the MK108 is crap if used in dogfight, is only value is against bombers....
Also this maybe postpone / cancel / reduce the effect of the raids against Ploesti ...

Comments ?

Switch to Night operations is very complex....
Put flame suppressors on the engine exhaust.. / add lots of navigation aids / train crews to operate at night
 
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To be honest, I don't think there's anything the Luftwaffe can do by 1943 that will greatly improve their strategic position, given the Allied advantages in numbers, resources and, yes, technology. I think if the technological history of WW2 proves anything, it's that there wasn't a bit of gee-whiz trickery the Germans could produce that Allied ingenuity and American industry couldn't counter and very quickly surpass.
 
To be honest, I don't think there's anything the Luftwaffe can do by 1943 that will greatly improve their strategic position, given the Allied advantages in numbers, resources and, yes, technology. I think if the technological history of WW2 proves anything, it's that there wasn't a bit of gee-whiz trickery the Germans could produce that Allied ingenuity and American industry couldn't counter and very quickly surpass.


So true....
But one thing that this POD can do is to put a much high price in strategic bombing.... and with a small and possible modification - no magic weapons or conditions....
 
Long range impacts

I realize that we are talking about the effect upon the course of the air war, but what about the impacts upon post-war thinking?

I agree that in the long run the Germans still get waxed, but the costs are likely to be far higher, and the cost-effectiveness of strategic bombing is likely to be more aggressively challenged in the postwar era. The USAAF (later the USAF) is still going to sell the line that they won the war while everyone else 'pitched in', but given the much longer casualty lists, the larger committment of resources to generate results no better than IOTL, it will be a much, much harder sell.

How much focus on missile armed aircraft (both for counter-bomber and general air-to-air) will there be as a result?
 
I realize that we are talking about the effect upon the course of the air war, but what about the impacts upon post-war thinking?

I agree that in the long run the Germans still get waxed, but the costs are likely to be far higher, and the cost-effectiveness of strategic bombing is likely to be more aggressively challenged in the postwar era. The USAAF (later the USAF) is still going to sell the line that they won the war while everyone else 'pitched in', but given the much longer casualty lists, the larger committment of resources to generate results no better than IOTL, it will be a much, much harder sell.

How much focus on missile armed aircraft (both for counter-bomber and general air-to-air) will there be as a result?

the Bomber Barons still will point at Japan, and the oil campaign against Germany (both of which made an excellent case for decisive contributions to the war). The Strategic Bombing Survey, with its flaws, was the weapon they used post war to justify those B36s. That and the fact that they alone could carry an atomic weapon (and later thermonuclear one) well into the 1950s.
 
the Bomber Barons still will point at Japan, and the oil campaign against Germany (both of which made an excellent case for decisive contributions to the war). The Strategic Bombing Survey, with its flaws, was the weapon they used post war to justify those B36s. That and the fact that they alone could carry an atomic weapon (and later thermonuclear one) well into the 1950s.

I don't doubt that they will use exactly that line, but it may be a more difficult one for them to put across than in IOTL.

1) Their losses will be higher

2) Their effectiveness will likely be lower

3) Pointing to Japan is going to be hard because Japan didn't use anything effective against bombers (though you never know...this is the sort of weapon that the Germans could share with the Japanese quite easily, and the Japanese might be able to employ with some effect), and their overall interceptor force was far inferior

4) Even if the USSBS is exactly the same as IOTL (and this is a best case scenario, after all nothing about the rockets is going to make the bombers MORE effective), this isn't about whether the bombs hit their targets, it is about how hard it was to get them their against a determined enemy. Even IOTL, the daylight bombing raids were sometimes prohibitively expensive, and if the rockets force (for instance) significant numbers of tactical aircraft to be diverted to bomber escort, that will tend to undercut the overall value of the bomber force.

Perhaps this will mean nothing, but it may also cause some planners to more aggressively push for alternatives to the bomber force. The B-36 may be safe (it was already well in the pipeline by the time that this would have been happening), but we might have seen more effort on useful escorts, and possibly long range missiles much earlier than IOTL. Certainly we can anticipate some different doctrine coming out of all this, along with a range of new tactics to cope with the threat.

Finally, even if the USAF learns nothing from all of this (how depressingly likely!), I wonder if our potential enemies might take different lessons. I mentioned the Japanese earlier, and the Russians will discover all this as the war progresses as well. Given that the rockets we are discussing (and logical improvements of them) are reasonably low-tech weapons, we might see some new ideas from at least some of our portential enemies in the post-war period.
 
This started in the Luftwaffe jets in the war ...


If Germany develop an start to mass produce the R4M in 1943, just equip the FW190 A-6 (the model of that era) with 24 / 48 each (the R4M weight 3.85kg each)....
In 43 the allies don't have enough escorts (if any) and FW-190 with R4M are pure death for bombers....
Bonus, the R4M don't need strategic materials that are rare.....
Is a cheap, easy to mass produce weapon, that can be used by almost any LW aircraft of the time.


Ideas of the impact in the air war ?

Maybe a few more B17's and B24's shot down but probably not much impact overall. As stated by others a load out of 24 or 48 is optimistic and 12 is more realistic. I can't see the average Luftwaffe Pilot being able to score many hits with a single salvo of 12 rockets sighted via a standard optical sight.

ISTR reading in the past that the trajectory of the R4M was similar to the Mk108 which made the R4M more usefull on aircraft that already had the MK108 (fire from the MK108 and the associated sights could be used to aid in aiming the R4M.)
 
Did Germany actually produce enough RDX to make this a viable option? If I remember correctly both the UK and Germany had shortages of it during the war if so this idea is probably DOA.
 

Riain

Banned
Perhaps if the USAAF can't transit over land it will bomb coastal targets such as the uboat bases in France and end the war sooner.
 
Germany apparently produced lots of RDX(the British name). The British had to import it to manufacture Torpex. (Canada, US.) Britain was late in it's large scale usage, relying largely on good old Amatol, until Churchill started wondering why German bombs made a bigger bang.

Bomber Command and VIII AF gave the St. Nazaire U-boat pens a good plastering on a number of occasions, using up to 2,000 lb AP bombs. Results were said to be good. They were not. Tallboy 12,000 lb bombs were dropped by Lancasters on Brest in 1944 August. Penetration was confirmed. Only Lancaster could carry Barnes Wallis's Tallboy and Grand Slam bombs, due to it's excellent lifting ability and huge bomb bay.

Just as a matter of interest, it was 5 Me-110's rigged to fire the older stove-pipe rockets, which made Chuck Yeager an ace in a day. FW-190's could only carry 2 of them.
 
In the Me-262 they put 12 in each wing - as you see in the picture, is not difficult to put the same amount in the FW-190...



swotl-9-18.jpg
 
I don't say that in OTL the FW-190 have 12 in each wing....
But if you see the dimensions of the 12 pack in the Me-262, is possible to do the same to the FW-190 in this POD...
 
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