Ancient American Discovery
- Thread starter finnz
- Start date
Honestly folks, getting Romans to North America is pretty easy. Consider, in 363 AD, Theodosius, a roman general and later emperor chased the picts out of Britannia and completed sailing around Britain. In fact, some of the writings seem to indicate that part of the naval forces landed on Iceland.
Now, from Iceland, you can see the you can see evidence of Greenland in the distance. An ambitious officer, who really wanted to ensure the Picts were not trying to escape could easily sail to Greenland. (Its only a few days sail to eastern Greenland). If they followed the coastline south to the southern tip of Greenland and then north-westward on the west side, Baffin Island comes into view.
Assuming they reach Baffin Island and decide to travel south to spend the winter in warmer climes it is an easy sail to northern Labrador and ultimately Newfoundland.
Romans, who were not paranoid about attacks from the land like the Vikings later would, would not stop at L'anse aux Meadows but would coast southwise to find more suitable spots to build camp. If they survived the winter they would return to the northern tip of Newfoundland and sail due east to Europe.
A follow-up mission would explore the Gulf of St. Lawrence and the mouth of the river.
As for what north america can provide to Europe.... one thing comes to mind.... Narwal tusks. (Ivory). Furs would also be valuable especially of animals rare or non-existent in Europe. Seal tar would be valuable also as would almost unlimited supplies of dried and salted fish.
Now, from Iceland, you can see the you can see evidence of Greenland in the distance. An ambitious officer, who really wanted to ensure the Picts were not trying to escape could easily sail to Greenland. (Its only a few days sail to eastern Greenland). If they followed the coastline south to the southern tip of Greenland and then north-westward on the west side, Baffin Island comes into view.
Assuming they reach Baffin Island and decide to travel south to spend the winter in warmer climes it is an easy sail to northern Labrador and ultimately Newfoundland.
Romans, who were not paranoid about attacks from the land like the Vikings later would, would not stop at L'anse aux Meadows but would coast southwise to find more suitable spots to build camp. If they survived the winter they would return to the northern tip of Newfoundland and sail due east to Europe.
A follow-up mission would explore the Gulf of St. Lawrence and the mouth of the river.
As for what north america can provide to Europe.... one thing comes to mind.... Narwal tusks. (Ivory). Furs would also be valuable especially of animals rare or non-existent in Europe. Seal tar would be valuable also as would almost unlimited supplies of dried and salted fish.
Not bad at all. That's a mere 5000 miles of sailing, give or take. Assuming about 50 miles of travel per day, that's only 100 days.
200 days round trip, and 10,000 miles.
Actually, Walrus tusks were easier to harvest.
The problem is that Africa provides a more secure source of ivory, greater quantities of ivory, easier to reach ivory and pre-established and well known trade routes.
Like? Beaver, Ermine, Weasel, Otter, Moose, Deer, Elk, etc., most or all of the significant furbearers would have been in Europe and rather easier to access.
????? You're going to have to elaborate on this one.
That wouldn't actually be valuable to the Romans.
But my compliments, an interesting and unconventional theory.
Id love to see a reputable citation for a Roman landing in Iceland.
Not entirely impossible but the only "hard" evidence for Romans in Iceland are some Roman coins that could have arrived in Iceland any's number of ways -- the most likely being by Irish or Viking sailors.
I spun a mini-yarn once upon a time based on Coffee. Essentially that wild coffee bushes took root in macaronesia, were discovered by Hanno the Navigator, and eventually domesticated. Coffee and then Mastic as a valued commodity lead to a thriving specialty product economy on the Macaronesian islands, which in turn produced a formidable deep sea tradition, which in turn eventually discovers the new world. This leads to temporary trade in chocolate and tobacco as luxury items before economic decline leads to abandonment.
curious about that.
What eveidence would there be? Greenland is 175 plus miles at it's nearest to iceland. Gunnbjørn Fjeld is about 245 miles from Iceland and stands over 12,000 ft tall, but could that have been visible?at that distance?
Baffin Island is 200 miles at it's nearest to Greenland and would not be visible, a short hop again, but why make it? there would be no visible land until you neared Ellesmere, 1,500 miles as the crow flies north of the southern cape of Greenland.
Assuming they reach Baffin Island and decide to travel south to spend the winter in warmer climes it is an easy sail to northern Labrador and ultimately Newfoundland.
Assuming they made it as far as Baffin Island and decided to sail south for warmer climes for the winter, the southern tip of Nova Scotia is still nearly 1,700 miles from the south end of Baffin Island, and not exactly balmy. Assuming they did not dawdle on their way south it is still a voyage of over a month in worsening weather.That assumes they take the inside route to the west of Newfoundland and don't get trapped in the Gulf of St Lawrence by sailing down the west coast of Cape Breton Island and into Northumberland strait.
The Gulf Stream does influence NS to a degree but it tends to be far offshore if in the vicinity at all. If they really hug the east coasts of Newfoundland and Nova Scotia the winds should be favorable and the Labrador current should also be in their favor, but that is an additional 200 to 300 miles. If they happened to stray too far from shore they could end up in Britain again because of the Gulf Stream and the prevailing westerlies. Also about 2,000 miles to Ireland.
I don't think there would be enough economic benefit to the empire to justify the necessary investment of men, ships and supplies.
I don't think Narwal tusks would be a major item except as a curiosity. Insufficient volume to compete in the ivory market and too hard to get. Foxes, bears, wolves etc were plentiful in Europe as were deer. Moose might be rare enough to be of interest, but are their pelts distinctive enough? I dunno.
Seals were plentiful around Britain and in the Baltic and there is the Mediterranean Monk seal much closer to home.
So I think the Romans, if this voyage was successful, would think..."ok, that's interesting, pretty far away though, nothing we can't really get closer to home, no threat, expensive to get to...Nope, I guess it really isn't that interesting...Oh look! There's Claudius Minimianus Dufusiensis! He just got back from Dacia...now that's interesting!"
You're welcome and a mere 100k words? That's practically a TLIAD.
Quite easily done, I guess.
One vaguely possible option would be - if I can resolve a couple of the more glaring doses of handwavium - would be to do it as a light-hearted TLIAM.
It doesn't have to be totally visible. The presence of migratory birds in the long summer days will be enough evidence of land to stimulate a voyage. They suit up for a round trip and do not pass a point of no return.
Did migratory birds move to and from Greenland and Iceland?
It's a pretty huge and reckless leap to just follow migratory birds on a voyage of indefinite length.
Most deep sea sailing cultures, including the Polynesians, the Vikings and the Renaissance Europeans did not do it all at once. There was a lot of slow leapfrogging.
It's a pretty huge and reckless leap to just follow migratory birds on a voyage of indefinite length.
Most deep sea sailing cultures, including the Polynesians, the Vikings and the Renaissance Europeans did not do it all at once. There was a lot of slow leapfrogging.
From the coast of Iceland, why would one conclude that birds in the air were from a different place?
During a trans-oceanic voyage I can understand that seeing a particular type of bird might indicate nearby land, but if I am on the coast of an island I would probably assume they are connected to the nearby island, which I already know about.
raharris1973
Gone Fishin'
Is this alleged closure of trade by the Caliphates and Ottomans actually true?
Not so much as block as control trade from the East through the Eastern Mediterranean and the Levant.