An Age of Miracles: The Revival of Rhomanion
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its more likely that the ERE will dismantle the Roman papacy, and let Avignon handle all papal duties. they wouldn't unduly anger their (presumably large) large catholic population by trying to elect a new pope.
Excellent update! I liked the shades of grey element in the Venetian ranks, that tha honorable Venetian gave us. Does he have a future in the story line, or was he killed in the aftermath? It would be interesting if he takes on a role as the only Venetian that Andreas doesn't hate, since his honor is largely responsible for Andreas' survival.
For some reason I just don't see Theodoros being the one who finishes Venice, nor do I see the absolute brutality that everyone else thinks will come to Venice happening. I think that all the men in the city will be used as slaves (since there is a historical precident for doing this now), whith the older or useless ones killed, and the women and children left in the city. I imagine that the male population will be replaced by Romans, probably mostly soldiers, who will be given houses in the city instead of land elsewhere, and will be encouraged to marry and have children with the women of the city. Just knowing the two potential emperors we're dealing with, this is the most profitable way of dismantling Venice, which would please Theodoros, and Andreas would be happy to watch the Venetians toil away in Cyprus and Crete while their wives are being remarried to the men who destroyed their empire. In my mind that's the ultimate revenge, after there are things so much worse than death, and being enslaved in a brutal labor camp by the men who ruined you while that man is simultaniously sleeping with your wife and re-educating your children is near the top of my list of worsts.
For some reason I just don't see Theodoros being the one who finishes Venice, nor do I see the absolute brutality that everyone else thinks will come to Venice happening. I think that all the men in the city will be used as slaves (since there is a historical precident for doing this now), whith the older or useless ones killed, and the women and children left in the city. I imagine that the male population will be replaced by Romans, probably mostly soldiers, who will be given houses in the city instead of land elsewhere, and will be encouraged to marry and have children with the women of the city. Just knowing the two potential emperors we're dealing with, this is the most profitable way of dismantling Venice, which would please Theodoros, and Andreas would be happy to watch the Venetians toil away in Cyprus and Crete while their wives are being remarried to the men who destroyed their empire. In my mind that's the ultimate revenge, after there are things so much worse than death, and being enslaved in a brutal labor camp by the men who ruined you while that man is simultaniously sleeping with your wife and re-educating your children is near the top of my list of worsts.
bolhabela: That's a possibility. Who Andreas marries will be pretty important coming up soon.
Elfwine: It's my insurance policy. If I ever get tired of writing this TL, it's easy to end it.
Arrix85: Venetians got what they wanted at Smyrna and the next full update will have action in the Balkans. As for Venice, I can easily see Theodoros doing the full inventory The Sandman suggested, although probably add killing the Doge's wife and any daughters in front of him. Andreas will likely be much more...emotional about the whole thing.
Grouchio: Andreas does have a challenger, namely his older sister Anastasia who's playing Anna Komnena (the writer of the Alexiad) to Andreas' Ioannes.
Mathalamus: Andreas will need to mellow before he'd make a good Emperor. But he should get the time, hopefully.
Dragos Cel Mare: Yeah, those two are distinct events. Although that doesn't mean the Empire won't have rough spots before the Time of Troubles.
Tyg: I hadn't thought of Avignon creating a proto-Geneva convention, but that's a good idea. One condition Theodoros would likely insist on would be that the conditions only apply to wars between states, not between a sovereign and rebels (in this war from Theodoros' view that's the Bulgarians and Italian peasantry).
As for Andreas, I wanted to create a gray Emperor. Someone who can be a good, decent person but also capable of unspeakable cruelties. It's a tall order to make such a person internally coherent and consistent, and I didn't want to use a mental disorder like bipolarism because I want Andreas to be functioning.
As for anti-rape statues, well the Romans have been using castration a lot, which is a rather poetic punishment.
luis3007: Pretty much. No one is going to come out of this clean.
Tongera: "I will be a Timur to the state of Venice."-Andreas Doukas Laskaris Komnenos
thekingsguard: It is. The Black Day ITTL is specifically referring to the events of April 10, 1455. But the Empire is by no means out of the woods yet.
The Sandman: That'd be appropriate. Romans: We sack efficiently. If Rome fell, the Papacy/College of Cardinals would probably flee and set up shop in some German archbishopric, probably Trier or Mainz. How much anyone would listen to them would depend on the details of the exile.
Ferngolly: The papacy would likely be placed near the Rhine, which would help pull Lotharingia in. England-France would likely stay Roman Catholic, since all the people it's arguing with (Aragon, Arles, Norway-Scotland) are Avignon, while Poland is sandwiched between Avignon Scandanavia, Avignon Hungary, and Orthodox Russia. Italy though would have a lot of potential for religious shifts; perhaps TTL Protestantism actually starts there?
frozenpredator: The Venetians aren't all evil, even if their policies are. It's a way of keeping the Serene Republic from toppling off the edge into cartoonish-evil.
Avitus: Thanks. That Venetian is dead. After Andreas' blanket statement of 'Kill them all' I couldn't think of a good justification for keeping him around. The Romans won't destroy the city itself, as some have suggested. Venice is too valuable. As for how the Venetians themselves are treated, the main factor will be the character of the Roman Emperor when it falls. If it were Andreas right now, at the very least every male above the age of thirteen (aka anyone who could possibly have fought) would be killed. An older Andreas who's had some time to get over what he's seen might be more merciful.
And since this TL has been very dark of late, here's a more fun mini-update.
The Roman siege lines, Jerusalem, April 13, 1455:
Theodoros, Emperor of the Romans, sighed, flicking a hyperpyron across the table. It banged against an empty silver pitcher. Clunk. Clunk. Clunk. Squish. He wiped the bits of smashed fly off the golden coin. Clunk. “Where’s the serving boy? I’m thirsty.”
Alexios Palaiologos looked up from his book. “Do you want me to fetch him, your majesty?”
“No.” Squoosh. Theodoros wiped off the antennae splattered across his portrait on the money. “Worst place to put a holy city, ever,” he muttered.
He picked up an ink quill, scratching at a piece of paper. Scrit, scrit, scrit. Alexios looked up. “Your majesty, may I ask what you’re doing?”
“Figuring out exactly how much Janbulat owes me for all this. War is like trade. You each try to swindle each other, and whoever wins then makes the other reimburse them for their trouble with interest. Now let’s see, carry the four…” Scrit, scrit. “Aha. Wait a minute; that isn’t right.” He glared at the number. “Oh, that’s what’s wrong. I just included the ‘this place sucks’ rate. I forget the ‘fuck you’ interest rate.” Scrit, scrit. “Much better.”
Alexios looked at the figure. “That’s…umm…huge.”
“Yes, it is. And I’m actually leaving out the…” Theodoros turned his head toward the tent entrance. “WHERE’S MY DAMN DRINK?!...” He turned back. “…rate.”
The serving boy hobbled into the tent, two goblets clattering on the tray held by his shaking hand. Sweat was pouring down his forehead as Theodoros swiped one cup. “About time,” he muttered, bringing it to his mouth.
The smell wafted its way into his nose. He sniffed; something about it was off, bitter. He set it down, looking at Alexios. “Don’t drink it; it’s poisoned.”
The boy’s eyes widened, Theodoros wondering if they’d pop out of his head. Then the boy winced as Alexios’ hand crushed his bicep. The Emperor was surprised at the strength in those wrinkled, seventy five year old hands, hands that had fought at Manzikert, at Caesarea. The last of his father’s generation looked at Theodoros. “Find out what he knows,” Theodoros snarled. A moment later the strategos hauled the boy out.
Theodoros stared at the table. Flick. Clunk. Squish. He stared at the fly’s eye splattered in the middle of his portrait’s forehead. “And I still don’t have a damn drink.” Scrit, scrit, scrit.
"Finally. By the way, you owe me three hyperpyra for this picture."
Elfwine: It's my insurance policy. If I ever get tired of writing this TL, it's easy to end it.
Arrix85: Venetians got what they wanted at Smyrna and the next full update will have action in the Balkans. As for Venice, I can easily see Theodoros doing the full inventory The Sandman suggested, although probably add killing the Doge's wife and any daughters in front of him. Andreas will likely be much more...emotional about the whole thing.
Grouchio: Andreas does have a challenger, namely his older sister Anastasia who's playing Anna Komnena (the writer of the Alexiad) to Andreas' Ioannes.
Mathalamus: Andreas will need to mellow before he'd make a good Emperor. But he should get the time, hopefully.
Dragos Cel Mare: Yeah, those two are distinct events. Although that doesn't mean the Empire won't have rough spots before the Time of Troubles.
Tyg: I hadn't thought of Avignon creating a proto-Geneva convention, but that's a good idea. One condition Theodoros would likely insist on would be that the conditions only apply to wars between states, not between a sovereign and rebels (in this war from Theodoros' view that's the Bulgarians and Italian peasantry).
As for Andreas, I wanted to create a gray Emperor. Someone who can be a good, decent person but also capable of unspeakable cruelties. It's a tall order to make such a person internally coherent and consistent, and I didn't want to use a mental disorder like bipolarism because I want Andreas to be functioning.
As for anti-rape statues, well the Romans have been using castration a lot, which is a rather poetic punishment.
luis3007: Pretty much. No one is going to come out of this clean.
Tongera: "I will be a Timur to the state of Venice."-Andreas Doukas Laskaris Komnenos
thekingsguard: It is. The Black Day ITTL is specifically referring to the events of April 10, 1455. But the Empire is by no means out of the woods yet.
The Sandman: That'd be appropriate. Romans: We sack efficiently. If Rome fell, the Papacy/College of Cardinals would probably flee and set up shop in some German archbishopric, probably Trier or Mainz. How much anyone would listen to them would depend on the details of the exile.
Ferngolly: The papacy would likely be placed near the Rhine, which would help pull Lotharingia in. England-France would likely stay Roman Catholic, since all the people it's arguing with (Aragon, Arles, Norway-Scotland) are Avignon, while Poland is sandwiched between Avignon Scandanavia, Avignon Hungary, and Orthodox Russia. Italy though would have a lot of potential for religious shifts; perhaps TTL Protestantism actually starts there?
frozenpredator: The Venetians aren't all evil, even if their policies are. It's a way of keeping the Serene Republic from toppling off the edge into cartoonish-evil.
Avitus: Thanks. That Venetian is dead. After Andreas' blanket statement of 'Kill them all' I couldn't think of a good justification for keeping him around. The Romans won't destroy the city itself, as some have suggested. Venice is too valuable. As for how the Venetians themselves are treated, the main factor will be the character of the Roman Emperor when it falls. If it were Andreas right now, at the very least every male above the age of thirteen (aka anyone who could possibly have fought) would be killed. An older Andreas who's had some time to get over what he's seen might be more merciful.
And since this TL has been very dark of late, here's a more fun mini-update.
The Roman siege lines, Jerusalem, April 13, 1455:
Theodoros, Emperor of the Romans, sighed, flicking a hyperpyron across the table. It banged against an empty silver pitcher. Clunk. Clunk. Clunk. Squish. He wiped the bits of smashed fly off the golden coin. Clunk. “Where’s the serving boy? I’m thirsty.”
Alexios Palaiologos looked up from his book. “Do you want me to fetch him, your majesty?”
“No.” Squoosh. Theodoros wiped off the antennae splattered across his portrait on the money. “Worst place to put a holy city, ever,” he muttered.
He picked up an ink quill, scratching at a piece of paper. Scrit, scrit, scrit. Alexios looked up. “Your majesty, may I ask what you’re doing?”
“Figuring out exactly how much Janbulat owes me for all this. War is like trade. You each try to swindle each other, and whoever wins then makes the other reimburse them for their trouble with interest. Now let’s see, carry the four…” Scrit, scrit. “Aha. Wait a minute; that isn’t right.” He glared at the number. “Oh, that’s what’s wrong. I just included the ‘this place sucks’ rate. I forget the ‘fuck you’ interest rate.” Scrit, scrit. “Much better.”
Alexios looked at the figure. “That’s…umm…huge.”
“Yes, it is. And I’m actually leaving out the…” Theodoros turned his head toward the tent entrance. “WHERE’S MY DAMN DRINK?!...” He turned back. “…rate.”
The serving boy hobbled into the tent, two goblets clattering on the tray held by his shaking hand. Sweat was pouring down his forehead as Theodoros swiped one cup. “About time,” he muttered, bringing it to his mouth.
The smell wafted its way into his nose. He sniffed; something about it was off, bitter. He set it down, looking at Alexios. “Don’t drink it; it’s poisoned.”
The boy’s eyes widened, Theodoros wondering if they’d pop out of his head. Then the boy winced as Alexios’ hand crushed his bicep. The Emperor was surprised at the strength in those wrinkled, seventy five year old hands, hands that had fought at Manzikert, at Caesarea. The last of his father’s generation looked at Theodoros. “Find out what he knows,” Theodoros snarled. A moment later the strategos hauled the boy out.
Theodoros stared at the table. Flick. Clunk. Squish. He stared at the fly’s eye splattered in the middle of his portrait’s forehead. “And I still don’t have a damn drink.” Scrit, scrit, scrit.
"Finally. By the way, you owe me three hyperpyra for this picture."
When theodoros learns of the Venetian attack and the death of his wife and one of his daughters, he is likely to flip. hard. i wont be surprised of the Egyptians decide to sue for peace after hearing him. from Cairo.
She did. And you didn't.
That being said, she was raped and saw her mother being raped and killed, not that much better than being dead...
Maybe in the eyes of a culture that views a woman who isn't physically a virgin as being worthless.
Given how she isn't a catatonic weeping wreck, she seems to have come out better than one might expect, having been on the receiving end of multiple Venetian sailors.
Seems strange for Theodoros just to ask for monetary compensation, at least some territories should also change hands... maybe at least Damascus? obviously all of this depends on his reaction after hearing the news. The problem for him it's gonna be that the Mamelukes will not listen to any request of truce, so getting out quick won't be an option, so he retreats, bloody and with the risk of not managing to return in time or with a big enough force, or he presses even harder south (which is just as bloody if not worse).
anyway it's gonna be a few weeks (one, two, I don't have a real good idea of travel speed) before he gets word of it.
anyway it's gonna be a few weeks (one, two, I don't have a real good idea of travel speed) before he gets word of it.
Maybe in the eyes of a culture that views a woman who isn't physically a virgin as being worthless.
i think it has more to do with the mother being raped and killed before her very eyes part.
I just discovered this TL recently and it took me a couple of weeks to read it all till now. It's a thrill and I love the sequence of "history" and proze! It's actually the best ATL I 've read in this site so far!
So, I obviously hate that my first post here includes a small bit of friently critisism (constructive I believe) in two points:
1. Byzantium was not especially fond of slavery. While it still existed after 11th century, the numbers of slaves were quite small, while the majority of them were domestic and no field (agricultural) slaves. Byzantines were aware of the fact pointed out by late Roman (4th-5th) historians who already had concluded that the decline in agricultural production from 2nd c. onwards had something to do with the low productivity of field slaves. Furthermore, the slaves in ERE in general were not Christians, but African and east european pagans. Hence, it's rather impropable that the Venetians after the sack of their city are going to be sold as slaves (IMO).
2. Theres a point that (IMO) hasn't been too realistic: Crete! This island is populated by Greeks, who do not really apreciate their venetian sovereigns. IOTL it took the Venetians from 1204 to late 15th c. to persuade the Cretans to accept them. There were numerus and a couple of almost succesful uprisings in that period, which, if they had a small support from a strong ERE would manage to throw the Venetians out of the island. Hence, I think that in the current situation, the Venetians would have a hard time keeping Crete under their control. I would easily imagine a Sicilian Vesper happening in Crete, and that's something it would be able to break the spearhead of Venetian might before proper ERE naval and land forces actually confront them in battlefield.
I hope my comments are not perceived as impolite. Thank you Basileus444 for your exquisite TL!
So, I obviously hate that my first post here includes a small bit of friently critisism (constructive I believe) in two points:
1. Byzantium was not especially fond of slavery. While it still existed after 11th century, the numbers of slaves were quite small, while the majority of them were domestic and no field (agricultural) slaves. Byzantines were aware of the fact pointed out by late Roman (4th-5th) historians who already had concluded that the decline in agricultural production from 2nd c. onwards had something to do with the low productivity of field slaves. Furthermore, the slaves in ERE in general were not Christians, but African and east european pagans. Hence, it's rather impropable that the Venetians after the sack of their city are going to be sold as slaves (IMO).
2. Theres a point that (IMO) hasn't been too realistic: Crete! This island is populated by Greeks, who do not really apreciate their venetian sovereigns. IOTL it took the Venetians from 1204 to late 15th c. to persuade the Cretans to accept them. There were numerus and a couple of almost succesful uprisings in that period, which, if they had a small support from a strong ERE would manage to throw the Venetians out of the island. Hence, I think that in the current situation, the Venetians would have a hard time keeping Crete under their control. I would easily imagine a Sicilian Vesper happening in Crete, and that's something it would be able to break the spearhead of Venetian might before proper ERE naval and land forces actually confront them in battlefield.
I hope my comments are not perceived as impolite. Thank you Basileus444 for your exquisite TL!
The Empire needs emperors made of iron and vinegar now and then. It emphasizes that the state's ceremonial and polished mannerisms are a means of achieving the ends of the state, nothing more.
Not sure Andreas will adopt that aspect of the pantocrator, but he could do worse.
Just for the love of God and Constantinople, sire an heir, Andreas. Please.
Yeah, the imperial family TTL does tend to produce few male heirs. The real empire often had one or two too many, not like England and Spain who were always having to find a distant cousin to replace their royals.
Well, the Empire isn't properly speaking de jure dynastic, just de facto.
Still, a few more sons would be nice - or not.
2 points here that i would like to point out for your two points.
1. Wouldn't the Byzantines make a exception in this case, after what happened?
2. Crete might rebel when they hear about the invasion of the Byzantine Empire, to rejoin with the empire.
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