this is the first vinland thread I've read that has brought up Maple Syrup, as a trade good would it be sought after as much as silk?
Alphabet For the Vinlandic Language
- Thread starter TsarSaucybottom
- Start date
It comes pretty close to it, yes.
Who knows, maybe there'll be a "Syrup Road" from Vinland to the Old World.
When I was at school (a long time ago!), an older child told me that the Silk Road actually was made from silk - though I didn't believe him (I'd read more about it than he had), it did conjure up some wonderful images. The 'Syrup Road' conjures up images too, but slightly weirder...
Back on topic... really enjoying this - I've always had a soft spot for the Celtic Church and this is a great way to keep it alive (at least for a while longer).
walking on a "Syrup Road" would be a little stickyIt comes pretty close to it, yes.
Who knows, maybe there'll be a "Syrup Road" from Vinland to the Old World.
You'd probably never go hungry, though; you'd have a road of syrup to walk on!
I had the same idea of the Silk Road when I was younger as well, so don't worry any, heh.When I was at school (a long time ago!), an older child told me that the Silk Road actually was made from silk - though I didn't believe him (I'd read more about it than he had), it did conjure up some wonderful images. The 'Syrup Road' conjures up images too, but slightly weirder...
Back on topic... really enjoying this - I've always had a soft spot for the Celtic Church and this is a great way to keep it alive (at least for a while longer).
On the Celtic Church, it's probably going to last for a while in this timeline and even has a bit of "independence" from the Roman Church, though there's gonna be a few issues when Protestantism comes around.
One of the interesting things about the Celtic Church was that bishops were purely religious appointments, with administration being done by the abbots. That of course was in direct opposition to the Roman Church's idea of a bishop. So the Alt-Reformation, if there is one, might actually be an extension of the disagreements between these two strands of the church in Western Europe.
Another thought: if there's some significant settlement south from Vinland, it'll make things interesting when the Spanish come visiting in later centuries (though there's a good chance that might be butterflied, since there'll be knowledge of a land in the way of the supposed 'other route to the Indies').
Another thought: if there's some significant settlement south from Vinland, it'll make things interesting when the Spanish come visiting in later centuries (though there's a good chance that might be butterflied, since there'll be knowledge of a land in the way of the supposed 'other route to the Indies').
That info about the Celtic Church is useful, thank you; I'll have to keep that in mind with further updates.
As far Spain, I've been mulling that over, as well; I was thinking about France and Spain competing in the south for trade with Mesoamerica--which I've thought of turning into "The Hansa of Auvanaria", though who knows. There's still a lot of WIP with my timeline.
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
That would be cool to see. Merchants in Mesoamerica had their own guilds but nowhere near the political influence that the Hansa enjoyed. Perhaps an influx of Old World diseases causes a break-down in political structures and trust in the traditional speaker-kings and priests leading to the pochteca to take over?
That actually sounds like a good idea; I was struggling a bit on ideas for that sort of thing, but that sounds like a good one. Would you happen to have any resources on the pochteca?
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
This would be a good start.
https://books.google.com/books?id=E...HQ5KDcQQ6AEIbTAN#v=onepage&q=pochteca&f=false
This is really good and just what I'm looking for, thank you so much! The part of the timeline involving Mesoamerica is still a bit far off, but this will be a big help - especially since I was a bit clueless on what exactly was traded.
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
The pochteca also had their own private militias - nothing comparable to the armies of the Aztec Empire or its predecessors but there's potential for Vinlanders to end up serving as mercenaries in the pochteca.
Funny, I was actually thinking about Vinlandic mercenaries earlier today, heh.The pochteca also had their own private militias - nothing comparable to the armies of the Aztec Empire or its predecessors but there's potential for Vinlanders to end up serving as mercenaries in the pochteca.
That helps a lot.
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
No problem broski. If you need help in Mesoamerica, I can try and help to the best of my abilities in helping you get sources.
I'll keep you posted, thank you. The Mesoamerican update won't be coming just yet, but when it gets around to that time period, I'll let you know.
Maybe not though. For one thing, they could make Columbus's wishful mistake, combining an overestimate of the extent of Eurasia with an underestimate of the radius of Earth to "prove" that the Nordo-Brito-Celtic northwest lands are actually the northlands of Cathay--that Greater Vinland is actually maritime Siberia and Manchuria, essentially. So just strike farther south and there you are, in legendary Cathay with the Spice Islands just to the south.
Or alternatively, they darn well know that Vinlandic contacts to the south prove it can't possibly be China there--but trade goods coming down the long indirect chain via the northlands are themselves valuable enough to go for--chocolate ought to be highly prized for instance! And until the geography of the west lands is much better known, people can optimistically assume there is probably a southwest passage to the Pacific open somewhere--and there is, unfortunately it is a choice between the Straits of Magellan or Drake's Passage! They're going to hope for one around Panama instead of course. When the first middle or southern Europeans (who might not be Catholic Spanish or Portuguese but possibly Muslim Andalusians instead, if Andalusia can ever get its political act together enough to maintain a unified resistance to the Reconquista--or possibly having delayed but failed to hold off their fate, some Andalusians plan to flee west) get to the Caribbean, they will learn from locals (who by then probably have some protocols for dealing with Europeans) that they are out of luck, but on the other hand setting up trade relations with Mexico probably can get them indirect access to China, via Pacific ports. A whole range of possibilities exist.
So I'd guess Iberian based explorers probably will be heading west, perhaps sooner rather than later--they can't go a lot sooner since the arts of deep ocean seamanship still have to be cultivated; I doubt it could be even a century earlier. But knowing for a fact that there is land on the other side closer than proper geography would place China has got to be encouraging.
It might not just be Iberians either in the first wave. England has already been butterflied and the Norman Conquest averted (though maybe a later one is in the cards?) and English people are involved in Vinland. OTL the English were out at sea a lot even before the age of Elizabeth and Drake; IIRC it was English crews who first landed on either Maderia or the Azores, so they were mucking around to the south. The Gulf Stream brings ships from the region just south of greater Vinland pretty much straight to the British Isles, a fact all the northlanders will become widely aware of, so finding an alternate westward route would be very interesting to Britons of various kinds.
The Netherlanders too are also seafarers, in this era dominated by Flemings. The French might get in on the act too, especially if butterflies give stronger ties of interest between Paris and Gascony or Brittany...or alternatively if French unification fails spectacularly a southern kingdom based say on Aquitaine might co-opt the Basque peoples, who OTL learned to sail as far as Newfoundland (without tipping anyone off about it). If the Basques have status and power in some French or north Iberian realm, they might be a bit less reticent--though to be sure in this ATL, the Grand Banks and Newfoundland are pre-empted by the Vinlanders and their Native allies. Which is why perhaps the Basques might wander farther south and discover, say, Bermuda or the Bahamas first...
Meanwhile though, it is very hard for me to imagine the Vinlanders establishing themselves permanently way up north of Maine and not then expanding pretty rapidly south. To be sure, they are accustomed to northlands, and perhaps considering the currents and prevailing winds it is not so easy to sweep southward, and their advantage over the Native peoples is not tremendous, while their demographic sources are small.
But by the same token, the latter point about Natives points to diffusion of culture both ways between the peoples, and extension of Vinlandic influence by alliance and intermarriage and trade. Their demographic base may be small, but they have hundreds of years for it to expand before alternate routes from Europe become viable. In a generation or three, it may be premature to have ties with Mexico (and closer interesting Native power groupings), but after four or five hundred years, I certainly do expect extensive contact and interchanges of some sort reaching clear down to Panama. The fact that the Vinlanders will bring in decimating diseases is offset somewhat by the long time-scale. By no means do I expect Native peoples to be fully immunized to Eurasian diseases, even to the limited extent the Eurasians are. The long chain of stages connecting northwest Europe to Vinland will tend to slow down and in some cases even stop the spread of some plagues, therefore neither the pure-blood Natives (who must still be by far the majority even in lands with extensive Vinlandic contacts) nor mixed bloods who will be numerous, nor the rather small number of people whose ancestors just happen to all come from Europe (probably not holding any special status for this, except the unfortunate one of "greenhorn recent immigrant") will be immunized against those.
But anyway, a substantial number of people of mainly Native social identification, along with others who identify more or less with Vinland, will at any rate have picked up some Old World genes that will make their immune response more effective; everyone has been exposed to some of the Old World microparasite zoo, and perhaps most important, Native societies (those in close contact with trade networks or hosting them anyway) will have had the devastating experience of plague in their cultural memory, and respond more effectively to new ones than their OTL counterparts, curbstomped by all of them at once, did. Be sure that the demographic decimation of the western lands will still happen--but perhaps it doesn't reach as low a nadir, and it reaches that sooner, and more societies will carry over from pre-contact roots, modified but not overwhelmed.
The fact that contact with the ruddy northern folk tends to bring calamity in its wake is something Native peoples will figure out and this may delay the spread of Nordic influence south and west after all, so perhaps the ATl Columbuses arrive in a tense time and place, and Mexico and on south largely are affected by Vinlandic actions indirectly via shifts in trade patterns and by legend and rumor.
First things first: Thank you Shevek23 for your feedback on the timeline; it gives me a lot of things to think about for the timeline in the future.
But second of all, I think I may redesign the modern Vinlandic alphabet a bit. The only really major changes, probably, will be the inclusion of the ogonek into the alphabet, since nasalization will probably stick around in the language.
God save whomever will have to deal with a keyboard with all those letters on it in the timeline.
But second of all, I think I may redesign the modern Vinlandic alphabet a bit. The only really major changes, probably, will be the inclusion of the ogonek into the alphabet, since nasalization will probably stick around in the language.
God save whomever will have to deal with a keyboard with all those letters on it in the timeline.
Umm... I brought it up in my TL and so did Bavarian Raven and Evilprodigy.
That aand I did kinda mentioned in this thread before this update soo (although if anything I'm glad someone else is writing things that aren't just "they built a town here, they built a town there, they killed people here" sort of deal most Vinland TL's are)
And it's a little inaccurate as pure maple syrup without any treatment would turn alcoholic very quickly, much easier to transport it as Maple sugar which is where you concentrate the syrup until there is no liquid left at all and then if you want a rough equivalent to syrup you mix the maple sugar in a certain amount of water and this makes it much lighter to carry as opposed to liquid Syrup.
As for trade I could see it being used in the Islands of Greenland, Iceland, Faroe, and Shetland for advertising the wealth of the colonies and their wondrous new sweets and the sweet cookies and pastries that could be made there. Other than that though I couldn't see anyone other than the rich even willing to go out of their way to obtain some for special occasions
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