AHTL: British Carrier Strike
- Thread starter HMS Audacious
- Start date
By the way any rational for the escort?
In OTL there was something like 4 battleships escorting the carriers for Taranto. I always felt it was problematic as the slow battleships meant lingering more time in range or air attack but there should be a reason to change this type of thing.
Similarly none of the battlecruisers served in the Mediterranean historically (due to the number of fast capital ships being so close). At this time the British had Hood Renown and Repulse while the Germans had Scharnhorst and Gneisenau and the Panzerschiff. So what changed in the backgorund?
In OTL there was something like 4 battleships escorting the carriers for Taranto. I always felt it was problematic as the slow battleships meant lingering more time in range or air attack but there should be a reason to change this type of thing.
Similarly none of the battlecruisers served in the Mediterranean historically (due to the number of fast capital ships being so close). At this time the British had Hood Renown and Repulse while the Germans had Scharnhorst and Gneisenau and the Panzerschiff. So what changed in the backgorund?
The cruiser doctrine has played a big part in the choice of escort. Otl the cruisers are part of the raider/economic concept. They were supposed to work with the carriers in the China station but with Italy joining the axis it has given the Royal Navy a chance to test the concept of fast battle groups in a semi controlled area. Hood was part of the mers el kabir operation so a battlecruiser in the Mediterranean is not too much of a stretch.
ITTL with Pound forced to step back from being first sea lord due to his cancer in 39 and Chamberlain in a bad way a lot of decisions are being made to change the way the armed forces are run. Pound is being replaced by Somerville. Cunningham is still in charge of the Mediterranean fleet. The illustrious class carriers are the planned six build. The last three are the indomitable sub class.
ITTL with Pound forced to step back from being first sea lord due to his cancer in 39 and Chamberlain in a bad way a lot of decisions are being made to change the way the armed forces are run. Pound is being replaced by Somerville. Cunningham is still in charge of the Mediterranean fleet. The illustrious class carriers are the planned six build. The last three are the indomitable sub class.
iOTL the situation was a bit more complex than shown so far
Operation Judgment was just one thread in a complex web of movements known as MB8 using
- Force H ,
- the Med Fleet BBs in several groups ... recombining as part of the diversion . IIRC 5 in total
- , several cruiser squadrons
- and light escort groups
- as well as the carrier and its close escorts
- 2 small convoys to Crete and Greece (tankers plus extra NGS vessels)
- 2 more convoys .. one too and from Malta ... mostly empties but leaving reinforcements to Maltas destroyers
- a diversionary attack by naval aircraft on Sardinia west of Italy
- destroying an Italian convoy off Otranto in the Adriatic east of Italy
- plus the strike itself in the middle.
OTL the strike close escort was only 4 cruisers for 1 carrier (though of course 2 CV were planned)
the BBs were further back to the east in an attempt to avoid the speed issue you mentioned
iTTL 3 CVs are used so it seems reasonable that a BC might be added
If available for use in the Eastern Med of course ... given that Renown would be Force H in the Western Med
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Operation Judgement pt 3
With the sixteen Swordfish attacking the Italian battleships and heavy cruisers the six Swordfish carrying four 250lb bombs each start there attack runs on the light cruisers moored in the Mar Piccolo. It's hoped that they can sink or damage the six light cruisers giving the Royal Navy supremacy in the Eastern Mediterranean for the time being.
With the Swordfish putting three torpedoes in the Littorio causing the battleship to sink bow first in the shallow water. With three of the Regia Marina battleships either sinking or on the shallow harbour floor the Swordfish start on the cruisers Pola and Trento. The duplex exploders work perfectly as two torpedoes explode under the cruisers creating two holes under the keel breaking the cruisers in half. The rebuilt ww1 dreadnought Andrea Doria takes four torpedoes and settles on the floor of the harbour on a even keel.
With the Swordfish putting three torpedoes in the Littorio causing the battleship to sink bow first in the shallow water. With three of the Regia Marina battleships either sinking or on the shallow harbour floor the Swordfish start on the cruisers Pola and Trento. The duplex exploders work perfectly as two torpedoes explode under the cruisers creating two holes under the keel breaking the cruisers in half. The rebuilt ww1 dreadnought Andrea Doria takes four torpedoes and settles on the floor of the harbour on a even keel.
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The light cruisers and destroyers moored in the mar Piccolo before operation Judgement
dropping a bomb on it wont start Bunker C on fire. You would need to get a fire going from some other source that actually melts the Bunker C enough to make it burn. WP or other incendiery or even a flare without a parachute would get it started enough, hopefully. Ideally you get some other POL that burns good like gasoline ignited then it spreads to the Bunker C.
Number 6 fuel oil is a high-viscosity residual oil requiring preheating to 104–127 °C (219–261 °F). Residual means the material remaining after the more valuable cuts of crude oil have boiled off. The residue may contain various undesirable impurities, including 2% water and 0.5% mineral soil. This fuel may be known as residual fuel oil (RFO), by the Navy specification of Bunker C, or by the Pacific Specification of PS-400.[9]
I have been told by Machinist mates and boilermen from the Navy that were taught by their Chiefs to not worry about the Bunker C unless it was heated. One story they told was putting lit matches and such on a bucket of the stuff and it not burning. They said they had to have a lit flare put on it to generate enough melting to get a good fire going.
no, you need to melt the Bunker C a bit to ignite it. It normally has a consistency of asphalt unless you heat it up and will not ignite unless you melt it. Most storage uses steam lines in the tanks, on board ship, locomotive, or furnace use, to heat it enough to even get it to flow in the pipes. A Bunker C tank will develop a layer on the inside that sets up and can protect the interior layers from small fragments depending on the size of the layer. Ideally you would want a bomb to open the tank then something like an incendiary or WP bomb on the Bunker C to keep heating it enough to burn.
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you can hit them, just opening them up will be bad if they are heated up and it flows out. The problem is if its not heated you don't do much damage other than make holes that have to be patched up. Ideally you can identify the AVGAS, diesel, and MOGAS tanks to hit. Hitting them hurts them more than the Bunker C. Bunker C is basically the left overs from the distilling process and the other POL is more valuable.
Hit the steam plant and knock it out and the stuff sets up and until they can heat it up they can't pump it to fuel the ships.
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Wanting to hit the fuel oil for the ships. So would it be possible to hit the diesel tanks?
yes just identify the correct tanks and hit them. Combo of HE and incendiary bombs work best on POL, HE is good but add the incendiary and you have an almost 100 percent chance of it burning.
If I was in charge (and I am still bitter that they did not ask me at the time) I would dedicate a squadron each on the 2 Modern BBs - Littorio and Vittorio Veneto
The lead strike Squadron from each carrier involved
The attack on Richelieu at Dakar with 6 Torpedo planes on July 8th 1940 hit her with 1 fish
So extrapolating from that assume that any such port strike would expect 1 hit in 6 - so to guarantee 2 hits - 12 planes would be needed for each target (but assume more should hit)
After that assign the next best 2 squadrons to take out the heavy Cruisers (armed with 6 x 500 pound SAP bombs each) with the remaining aircraft sent as a 3rd wave after the remaining Battleships (armed with torpedo's).
So that is 3 waves - 60 to 90 minutes apart
Airgroups
Ark Royal 30 Swordfish, 12 Fulmar, 12 Skua
Illustrious 24 Swordfish, 12 Fulmar
Obviously the above assumes 100% availability which I would assume both carriers would do their best to achieve - OTL Illustrious had a mishap losing 3 aircraft to a fire a few days before the Op and 1 aircraft had to turn back during the mission
Wave 1 from Ark Royal
12 Torpedo carrying Swordfish - target Littorio
3 Skua carrying flares - making flare drops at 5 minute intervals (at planned times)
Wave 1 from Illustrious
10 Torpedo carrying Swordfish - target Vittorio Veneto
2 Flare carrying Swordfish - making flare drops at 5 minute intervals (at planned times)
Wave 2 from Ark Royal
12 Bomb carrying Swordfish - target Heavy Cruisers
3 Skua carrying flares - making flare drops at 5 minute intervals (at planned times)
Wave 2 from Illustrious
10 (or the remaining operational aircraft) Bomb carrying Swordfish - target Heavy Cruisers
2 Flare carrying Swordfish - making flare drops at 5 minute intervals (at planned times)
Wave 3 from Ark Royal
6 (or however many operational swordfish are left out of the nominal 30 carried) Torpedo carrying Swordfish - target any of the remaining battleships in the harbour
3 Skua carrying flares - making flare drops at 5 minute intervals (at planned times)
If both modern BBs are sunk (i.e. hit by 2 or more torpedo's) and several of the Cruisers are bombed and hopefully sunk as well then anything else is a major bonus
The lead strike Squadron from each carrier involved
The attack on Richelieu at Dakar with 6 Torpedo planes on July 8th 1940 hit her with 1 fish
So extrapolating from that assume that any such port strike would expect 1 hit in 6 - so to guarantee 2 hits - 12 planes would be needed for each target (but assume more should hit)
After that assign the next best 2 squadrons to take out the heavy Cruisers (armed with 6 x 500 pound SAP bombs each) with the remaining aircraft sent as a 3rd wave after the remaining Battleships (armed with torpedo's).
So that is 3 waves - 60 to 90 minutes apart
Airgroups
Ark Royal 30 Swordfish, 12 Fulmar, 12 Skua
Illustrious 24 Swordfish, 12 Fulmar
Obviously the above assumes 100% availability which I would assume both carriers would do their best to achieve - OTL Illustrious had a mishap losing 3 aircraft to a fire a few days before the Op and 1 aircraft had to turn back during the mission
Wave 1 from Ark Royal
12 Torpedo carrying Swordfish - target Littorio
3 Skua carrying flares - making flare drops at 5 minute intervals (at planned times)
Wave 1 from Illustrious
10 Torpedo carrying Swordfish - target Vittorio Veneto
2 Flare carrying Swordfish - making flare drops at 5 minute intervals (at planned times)
Wave 2 from Ark Royal
12 Bomb carrying Swordfish - target Heavy Cruisers
3 Skua carrying flares - making flare drops at 5 minute intervals (at planned times)
Wave 2 from Illustrious
10 (or the remaining operational aircraft) Bomb carrying Swordfish - target Heavy Cruisers
2 Flare carrying Swordfish - making flare drops at 5 minute intervals (at planned times)
Wave 3 from Ark Royal
6 (or however many operational swordfish are left out of the nominal 30 carried) Torpedo carrying Swordfish - target any of the remaining battleships in the harbour
3 Skua carrying flares - making flare drops at 5 minute intervals (at planned times)
If both modern BBs are sunk (i.e. hit by 2 or more torpedo's) and several of the Cruisers are bombed and hopefully sunk as well then anything else is a major bonus
Edit - I meant to add ignore the CLs, DDs and fuel tank farm - the prize is and should remain the 2 Modern BBs and the Heavy Crusiers and the rebuilt BBs - focus on them
And if any 'farming' can be done by the RAF outside the harbour then superb
And if any 'farming' can be done by the RAF outside the harbour then superb
Why not hit the fuel farm? It would also cripple the Italians wouldn't it
The CL DD and fuel tank farms are suitable targets for planes not armed with torpedoes imo.
The swordfish and skua probably don't carry heavy enough bombs to do significant damage on the battleships.
Also there's an argument that light from the fuel farms blazing would improve visibility for other targets. I do agree that the battleships and heavy cruisers are priority.
The BB and CA are being targeted by the torpedo carrying Swordfish while the bomb carrying Swordfish are going for the DD and seaplane carrier
IMO - Torpedo aircraft for the BBs, Bomb armed aircraft for the Heavy Cruisers
These ships were the main surface threats to the RN at the time as the modernised BBs, New BBs and the 8" armed Heavy Crusiers out ranged everything in the RN except HMS Warspite (whose modified 15" guns could fire further).
As for the Fuel Farm - Ship fuel is not like car fuel - it is a sluggish treacle and does not burn well unless subjected to very high temperatures
While 500 pound bomb is likely to badly damage the tanks - it is unlikely to set fire to them
Many years ago I once posed the same question regarding the Pearl Harbour attack suggesting that the Fuel farms destruction would render the base far less useful as a forward base until repaired and was learned of the properties of then ship fuel and the difficulty of such an attack setting fire to it.
Better IMO to use the attack to target those vessels that the RN would have difficulty with - which is in order
Littorio and Vittorio Veneto
The Heavy Crusiers
The rebuilt Battleships
Any other warship
While the result of 20 Swordfish was remarkable - I believe that the OTL attack spread the small number of planes over too many objectives
These ships were the main surface threats to the RN at the time as the modernised BBs, New BBs and the 8" armed Heavy Crusiers out ranged everything in the RN except HMS Warspite (whose modified 15" guns could fire further).
As for the Fuel Farm - Ship fuel is not like car fuel - it is a sluggish treacle and does not burn well unless subjected to very high temperatures
While 500 pound bomb is likely to badly damage the tanks - it is unlikely to set fire to them
Many years ago I once posed the same question regarding the Pearl Harbour attack suggesting that the Fuel farms destruction would render the base far less useful as a forward base until repaired and was learned of the properties of then ship fuel and the difficulty of such an attack setting fire to it.
Better IMO to use the attack to target those vessels that the RN would have difficulty with - which is in order
Littorio and Vittorio Veneto
The Heavy Crusiers
The rebuilt Battleships
Any other warship
While the result of 20 Swordfish was remarkable - I believe that the OTL attack spread the small number of planes over too many objectives