AHQ: No Persian Empire and a Divided Anatolia-Mid East, effect on Greece.

[John7755 يوحنا]

Greetings,

We know well from otl what the effect was on Greece and Hellenic culture when there was a large imperial regime and geopolitical power to the east in Anatolia, the Levant and Egypt in the form of the Achaemenid Empire. However, in opposition to a large unified imperium, what would be the converse effect on the Hellenic cultures and states in a situation wherein the Middle East is from the years 550-400 BCE, disunited comparatively and distributed between several different powerbases. How would this effect internal conflict between major players such as Sparta, Athens, Thebes, etc..?

 

[PragmaticAntithesis]

Without the Persian Empire, the Ionian Revolt never happens. Instead, the Ionian Coast stays Greek. This means the Ionian School of Philosophy. whose values of naturalist physicalism are remarkably similar to those of modern science, continues to exist for much longer. The Ionian School correctly figured out plate tectonics, heliocentrism, the existence of fundamental particles and round Earth. Expect a lot of accurate insights into Physics and Chemistry to be made early, which may well result in technology being dramatically accelerated.

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

Without the Persian Empire, the Ionian Revolt never happens. Instead, the Ionian Coast stays Greek. This means the Ionian School of Philosophy. whose values of naturalist physicalism are remarkably similar to those of modern science, continues to exist for much longer. The Ionian School correctly figured out plate tectonics, heliocentrism, the existence of fundamental particles and round Earth. Expect a lot of accurate insights into Physics and Chemistry to be made early, which may well result in technology being dramatically accelerated.

Very interesting. Did these Ionian schools of philosophy that opined on topics of the natural world ever delve into political thought and give preference for certain political goals and ideals?

 

[PragmaticAntithesis]

Very interesting. Did these Ionian schools of philosophy that opined on topics of the natural world ever delve into political thought and give preference for certain political goals and ideals?

Thales, the first Greek Philosopher, suggested that the Ionian League should be united, but was rebuffed by people wanting their cities to remain more independent. The philosophers did not have much political power.

 

[Silver01]

Without the Persian Empire, the Ionian Revolt never happens. Instead, the Ionian Coast stays Greek. This means the Ionian School of Philosophy. whose values of naturalist physicalism are remarkably similar to those of modern science, continues to exist for much longer. The Ionian School correctly figured out plate tectonics, heliocentrism, the existence of fundamental particles and round Earth. Expect a lot of accurate insights into Physics and Chemistry to be made early, which may well result in technology being dramatically accelerated.

the ionians were under the king of lydia no?

 

[Xenophonte]

I'd say as above noted, that the biggest effect/butterflies of a no Persian Empire would be felt in the twelve Greek cities of Asia Minor (Ionian League) along with Samos and Chios and especially for Miletus.
I'd guess that would be greater chances that 'Democratic' revolutions/regimes would have been widespread among these poleis, without being ruled by Persian appointed Tyrants and/or its support for Oligarchic regimes.
Another and bigger effect would be that Sparta would remain mostly focused in the Peloponnese and I'd guess that the Athena's Delian league and her OTL path to the naval/commercial hegemony would be butterflied.
Also, and if not butterflied away the OTL Poleis political struggles and their wars to achieve the hegemony, then another important consequence would be the absence of the 'Persian gold' influence during these OTL wars and/or in the Poleis internal politic conflicts. Also, perhaps, would be a greater demand and 'market' than OTL for Greek hoplites as mercenaries and/or even 'd posible that if not butterflied, that the OTL example of Egypt could be followed by other Middle East/Anatolian Kingdoms.

 

[PragmaticAntithesis]

the ionians were under the king of lydia no?

For the ones not on islands, technically yes, but the Ionian city states maintained a lot of autonomy.

 

[Silver01]

this is by far not my specialty but studying biblical history helped in some so the things i do know is that Croesus would be most likely an expansionist and would try to conquer Cappadocia
babylon is ruled under Nabonidus who would mean its on shaky ground if Belshazzar can take the throne he might save Babylon from a decline and even then babylon would be hard to conquer , egypt would be fine on its own under Amasis II and i think he would not have any expansionist tendencies the last power would be Media which Imo has the most potential to expand

 

[SunKing105]

I’m going to assume that the Persian revolt under Cyrus II fails, with a battered and tired, but intact Median “empire”(while it‘s clear there was a single royal lineage deriving from the “lawmaker” Deioces ruling Ecbatana, the impression we get from Babylonian sources and Median archaeology, as well as the historical events of the Persian revolt, is a relatively loose federation of Iranic states rather than an actual empire), then Lydia would function more like a super-Odyrsia, lacking a real imperial drive against the Greeks.

Without the Persian Empire, the Ionian Revolt never happens. Instead, the Ionian Coast stays Greek. This means the Ionian School of Philosophy. whose values of naturalist physicalism are remarkably similar to those of modern science, continues to exist for much longer.

Ummm, the Ionian coast did stay Greek, and also, most cities recovered quickly after a few decades, Miletus being the main exception. And there is no guarantee that similar problems at play that caused the Ionian Revolt IOTL would cause them to revolt against Lydia instead.

Instead, the Ionian Coast stays Greek. This means the Ionian School of Philosophy. whose values of naturalist physicalism are remarkably similar to those of modern science, continues to exist for much longer. The Ionian School correctly figured out plate tectonics, heliocentrism, the existence of fundamental particles and round Earth. Expect a lot of accurate insights into Physics and Chemistry to be made early, which may well result in technology being dramatically accelerated.

Source?

the ionians were under the king of lydia no?

True.

For the ones not on islands, technically yes, but the Ionian city states maintained a lot of autonomy.

So did the ones under Persian rule.

this is by far not my specialty but studying biblical history helped in some so the things i do know is that Croesus would be most likely an expansionist and would try to conquer Cappadocia
babylon is ruled under Nabonidus who would mean its on shaky ground if Belshazzar can take the throne he might save Babylon from a decline and even then babylon would be hard to conquer , egypt would be fine on its own under Amasis II and i think he would not have any expansionist tendencies the last power would be Media which Imo has the most potential to expand

Considering how easily the Medes were toppled by the Persians IOTL, I question their ability to expand where they already have to maintain control over several Iranian tribes unhappy with their rule.

 

[PragmaticAntithesis]

Source

Admittedly Wikipedia and WhatIfAltHist; I'll try and find better ones and if I can't I'll retract my statement.

 

[Derek Pullem]

It's actually a very interesting question - without Persia there is no Delian league and no hegemony from Athens for Sparta and others to react against. Arguably Thebes was a reaction against Sparta and Macedon against Thebes.

I would suggest it is inconceivable that there wouldn't be an attempt at hegemony from some city state or other (or group of states). Lydia / Ionian League is as good as any for a candidate. You may even see a wider Greek led polity forming around one of the colonies in Sicily or Magna Graecia. Syracuse might be a candidate.

 

[PsyloSurgeon]

Lydia would become the main nemesis of the Greeks, and there will be various Hellenic-Lydian conflicts.
In addition, the Lydians would become heavily influence by greek culture, and if they do expand westward against the Babylonians or Medians, then they transmit Hellenic influences westward.

 

[Dagoth Ur]

Lydia would become the main nemesis of the Greeks, and there will be various Hellenic-Lydian conflicts.
In addition, the Lydians would become heavily influence by greek culture, and if they do expand westward against the Babylonians or Medians, then they transmit Hellenic influences westward.

Lydia to Persia, via Hispania!

 

[PsyloSurgeon]

Lydia to Persia, via Hispania!

Lol, I meant eastward

 

[Xenophonte]

This scenario, could lead to intensify and displace the commercial competence and naval conflicts with the Phoenicians/Carthaginians from the Western Mediterranean and Sicily to the Eastern Mediterranean. Changing some of the OTL directions and places where the Greeks stablished/founded trade posts/colonies, perhaps, including, TTL, to the coasts of Palestine and/or Chipre... Also, if so, would seems possible that the Ancient history of Chipre 'd change radically, with the local/natives kingdoms keeping their independence and/or with the island becoming in the Greeks and Phoenicians commercial and military battleground...