AHC Viking or Irish or Welsh Azores by 1100 CE
- Thread starter raharris1973
- Start date
It's a too far from most of these populations centers, without too much incitative to go there on their own (raiding, for instance, asks for some closeness to the targets you want to raid), and without the right naval technology (meaning not one much avaible to these peoples at this point) the absence of real incitative (demographic, commercial, etc.) is a real pain.
Let's try something, tough, even if it's a tiny bit unlikely.
Arabo-Islamized scandinavian outposts along western Iberian coast (mostly Algraves) are a thing ITTL, being used in the same way scandinavian lords were by Carolingians and Capetians; maybe due to a more important political-economical crisis in al-Andalus in the Xth century.
Meaning that these are in contact with Arabo-Andalusian plantation economy, and with a relatively important naval tradition that was much less present in IOTL Arabo-Andalusian culture
Eventually, these Arabo-Andalusian "Normans" may discover Azores and set up, as Portuguese did in the XVth, a plantation colony there, more or less autonomous from Islamic Spain.
Okay, it's certainly not going to happen by the XIIth century. Okay, these "Islamic Normans" would only be remotely identifiable as Vikings, but it's the best I can see. Does it works for you?
Let's try something, tough, even if it's a tiny bit unlikely.
Arabo-Islamized scandinavian outposts along western Iberian coast (mostly Algraves) are a thing ITTL, being used in the same way scandinavian lords were by Carolingians and Capetians; maybe due to a more important political-economical crisis in al-Andalus in the Xth century.
Meaning that these are in contact with Arabo-Andalusian plantation economy, and with a relatively important naval tradition that was much less present in IOTL Arabo-Andalusian culture
Eventually, these Arabo-Andalusian "Normans" may discover Azores and set up, as Portuguese did in the XVth, a plantation colony there, more or less autonomous from Islamic Spain.
Okay, it's certainly not going to happen by the XIIth century. Okay, these "Islamic Normans" would only be remotely identifiable as Vikings, but it's the best I can see. Does it works for you?
Just a rough idea:
Irish monks were notorious for trying to find lonely out-of-the-way places to build places for them to meditate and live the life of a hermit. There are some theories that the Irish made it as far north as Iceland before the Vikings and their monasteries dotted the continent, especially Gaul and Germany.
Now, lets say that some Irish monk gets the idea of go and try to convert the Moors of Hispania, or else he gets invited to set up a monastery in the Basque lands. Either war, after getting some fellow holy men together, our intrepid monk (lets call him Saint Kevin) heads south from Ireland with a small number of currachs. They get blown horribly off course and, after sailing trying to find land, they come upon the Azores. A miracle!
The men make way to the islands and begin to explore and find the land to be fertile and uninhabited. The fishing is good, and our holy men are able to regain their strength and even make repairs to their boats. Even better yet, the place is utterly remote and good for spiritual contemplation. When the time has come for the men to return him, Saint Kevin says that he wishes to stay. One or two monks agree to stay with him (much to Kevin's disgust, at first) and the rest set sail, saying that they would return as soon as they could.
A year passes, and then two, but in the second year a small group of large currachs are seen. The boats make landfall and are greeted by Saint Kevin and his co-compatriots. Kevin is esctatic, and talking about the visions that he and the other monks have had over the past two years. Kevin has become convinced that the islands were on the gates of Heaven itself, and he has taken to calling the lands Tir na nOg. This excites the men, and many more agree to stay, while others return to Ireland to spread the word of this mystical place.
Over the next few years, more and more monks come to the Azores and a number of small monasteries are set up. Some of the later voyages bring a number of sheep which thrive on the islands, cattle (the lynch pin of the Gaelic economy) are more difficult but not impossible. As the monasteries become more developed, even some lay people begin to travel to the islands in pilgrimage, and some agree to stay. The population is very small, of course, but stories of the land become well known in Ireland (rumors spread to the continent, and some Anglo-Saxon and Frankish pilgrims come, but there isn't anything there to draw their settlement).
Finally comes the Viking age and the chaos which it unleashed on Ireland. The Azores begin to be seen as a place that is safe for Christians and more monks, and some settlers, arrive. Finally, following a nasty battle, a defeated Ri takes his man and their families and sets sail for the Azores, hooping to find safety for his people. They arrive and this comes to be seen by historians as the first permanent settlement in the Azores. More would follow; mainly a trickle, but enough that the islands are fully settled by Gaelic Christians within a century or so.
So: there you go; Gaelic Azores
Not sure how realistic it is, but I think its the best chance you are going to get. The Azores are out of the way and not on any of the main shipping lanes of the era (there is a reason they remained undiscovered for so long), so the best you are really going to get is an accidental discovery. Having it being done by holy men is the best chance to have some stick around, since it would likely be seen as a good place for hermits and monks. Pilgrimages weren't uncommon, especially among Irish Christians, so its likely that, once a monastery is established it would draw people (most likely the rich) and a few might stick around to settle. After that, its not impossible that some king or another might see it as a possible refuge from the Vikings.
Irish monks were notorious for trying to find lonely out-of-the-way places to build places for them to meditate and live the life of a hermit. There are some theories that the Irish made it as far north as Iceland before the Vikings and their monasteries dotted the continent, especially Gaul and Germany.
Now, lets say that some Irish monk gets the idea of go and try to convert the Moors of Hispania, or else he gets invited to set up a monastery in the Basque lands. Either war, after getting some fellow holy men together, our intrepid monk (lets call him Saint Kevin) heads south from Ireland with a small number of currachs. They get blown horribly off course and, after sailing trying to find land, they come upon the Azores. A miracle!
The men make way to the islands and begin to explore and find the land to be fertile and uninhabited. The fishing is good, and our holy men are able to regain their strength and even make repairs to their boats. Even better yet, the place is utterly remote and good for spiritual contemplation. When the time has come for the men to return him, Saint Kevin says that he wishes to stay. One or two monks agree to stay with him (much to Kevin's disgust, at first) and the rest set sail, saying that they would return as soon as they could.
A year passes, and then two, but in the second year a small group of large currachs are seen. The boats make landfall and are greeted by Saint Kevin and his co-compatriots. Kevin is esctatic, and talking about the visions that he and the other monks have had over the past two years. Kevin has become convinced that the islands were on the gates of Heaven itself, and he has taken to calling the lands Tir na nOg. This excites the men, and many more agree to stay, while others return to Ireland to spread the word of this mystical place.
Over the next few years, more and more monks come to the Azores and a number of small monasteries are set up. Some of the later voyages bring a number of sheep which thrive on the islands, cattle (the lynch pin of the Gaelic economy) are more difficult but not impossible. As the monasteries become more developed, even some lay people begin to travel to the islands in pilgrimage, and some agree to stay. The population is very small, of course, but stories of the land become well known in Ireland (rumors spread to the continent, and some Anglo-Saxon and Frankish pilgrims come, but there isn't anything there to draw their settlement).
Finally comes the Viking age and the chaos which it unleashed on Ireland. The Azores begin to be seen as a place that is safe for Christians and more monks, and some settlers, arrive. Finally, following a nasty battle, a defeated Ri takes his man and their families and sets sail for the Azores, hooping to find safety for his people. They arrive and this comes to be seen by historians as the first permanent settlement in the Azores. More would follow; mainly a trickle, but enough that the islands are fully settled by Gaelic Christians within a century or so.
So: there you go; Gaelic Azores
Not sure how realistic it is, but I think its the best chance you are going to get. The Azores are out of the way and not on any of the main shipping lanes of the era (there is a reason they remained undiscovered for so long), so the best you are really going to get is an accidental discovery. Having it being done by holy men is the best chance to have some stick around, since it would likely be seen as a good place for hermits and monks. Pilgrimages weren't uncommon, especially among Irish Christians, so its likely that, once a monastery is established it would draw people (most likely the rich) and a few might stick around to settle. After that, its not impossible that some king or another might see it as a possible refuge from the Vikings.
I presume you are not speaking absolutely here? In fact OTL the Azores were discovered by English sailors in the 14th century. That suggests to me that Irish or Welsh are in the running just the same, depending of course on how many ships these people operate relative to the English and whether their ships and voyages typically go as far in similar waters.
But not before 1100! I presume your remark allows for the early time frame the OP specifies and rules it out accordingly.
That said--the state of the art and the inclinations of various British Isles sailors of the era may not have encouraged them to roam about in that region of sea as much as several centuries hence, but among all the peoples who could stumble upon the Azores first, people from the British Isles are strong candidates. About their only possible rivals would be Iberians or Basques. Given that it was English people who found them first OTL I would not dismiss an accidental early discovery completely out of hand.
Now I'm thinking of the islands being found in the lifetime of Harold of Wessex, and kept a family secret by the Godwinsons. So William invades and as OTL has the good fortune to kill Harold and English resistance splinters largely as OTL, but people in Harold's faction flee south to the islands which the Normans don't know about, to set up an England in exile.
That's just fanciful and not extremely probable to be sure. It almost might as well be Irish, Viking-Irish, or Welsh finding them first this early, or Iberians or Basques.
It's hard to pinpoint exactly when Azores were rediscovered by western European sailors, to be honest.
There's the possibility that Punic or Roman sailors might have reached it in their time, even if it was largely unconsequential on the long run; then later by Arabo-Andalusian sailors.
It's largely unknown how XIVth expeditions actually took place, how much of these followed more or less known roads, etc. I don't remember a particular english expedition, to be honest, but it's so clouded in a mess of various claims (as for Canarias) that it could have been discovered by english, italian or spanish sailors in the late XIVth.
My point is more, for what matter western Europeans, not that when the islands were discovered (again, Carthagians may have been able to do so) and could have been discovered; but how to have sustained contacts with remote islands. You'd need both the technological basis, hard (IOTL the development of carracks) and soft ("having the knack to"); and possibly a naval culture (the political/economical willingess to abide by a naval projection, for instance).
to have the naval technology (hard technology
By the XIVth, these technologies were known in Western Europe, but they were also relatively expensive when it came to repeted and sustained contacts : it's why most of the XIVth/XVth expeditions were sponsored by banks, financials if not court lords. Ireland and Wales at this point simply didn't have the political and economical background to assume such a role.
For exemple, a lot of people points how Basques* were the first discoverers of America in Europe, but these were mostly late XVth fishermen expeditions allowed by the aformentioned technologica advance (rather than an immemorial presence, or "sacred fisheries").
So, the issue isn't as much how to reach Azores, but how to sustain enough contact for having a viable settlement, or even to motivate a settlement in first place.
*Which in reality didn't really pointed at a unique ethnic origin, but as a mix of French, Breton, Castillan, Basque, English, Irish, Portuguese, etc. fishermen whom point of departure was in Gulf of Gascony. A bit like a good part of Frisians traders in the VIIIth/IXth centuries were probably largely made of Frankish or Anglo-Saxon traders.
Irish monks, like the pre-Norse settlers of Iceland, seem the most likely. But one possibility is the increased importance of the Canaries and Madeira in (Late) Antiquity. Maybe this would mean a voyage is more likely to find the Azores.
As a side note, if the Azores are "incorporated" into European civilisation/knowledge, what are the odds Bermuda is next on the list, pre-discovery of the Americas? It's the next island in the Mid-Atlantic over, despite being about 2,000 miles away.
As a side note, if the Azores are "incorporated" into European civilisation/knowledge, what are the odds Bermuda is next on the list, pre-discovery of the Americas? It's the next island in the Mid-Atlantic over, despite being about 2,000 miles away.
I don't think its that difficult. The Norse had the best shipping and navigation package in the centuries just before 1100. And it was not exceptional for them to sail to places like Spain, Northern Africa etc. So one ship off-course finds the Azores. The Norse would be quite pleased about fertile land with lots of sun and not previous inhabitants, so a few families settle the place. Exponential growth sets in.
Hitting the Azores accidentally from Europe is difficult due to currents and prevailing winds, but if you went west southwest from Cornwall or Brittany around July, you could get winds and the canary current. Going back should be easier. Azores Norse may enjoy a couple of centuries when they can easily get to Spain and the med, but the reverse is not true.
Hitting the Azores accidentally from Europe is difficult due to currents and prevailing winds, but if you went west southwest from Cornwall or Brittany around July, you could get winds and the canary current. Going back should be easier. Azores Norse may enjoy a couple of centuries when they can easily get to Spain and the med, but the reverse is not true.
Islamization doesn't necessarily mean that they have to stop eating pork. From personal experience, I know that a lot of Bektashi Muslims and Bosnian Muslims eat pork and drink liquor OTL, so it's not a stretch to imagine alt-Muslim populations doing the same.
To be honest, I don't see the idea as that far fetched (considering the Normans in Sicily, Vikings in Vinland, etc). The Azores make a very comfortable place to stage raids on the Med. from, and act as a Norse trade post. (Amusingly, you could raid Africa and then sell to France, or vice-versa).
If the Norse find it, I reckon they'd probably use it as such.
For a PoD? Have a raiding party raid S.Spain or N.Africa, and then, after spending too long on shore, have to flee a fleet. They swing out far to the West to ensure their safety, and after losing their pursuers, continue north and find the Azores. After marking it as a good place to run, they go back Home. Next season they go with some of their clan, as it is a good place to go and raid from, shorter trips, far enough from home that there aren't many competitors. Homesteads become a small state-let, perhaps quite a wealthy one (compared to its population) with the Med and Atlantic coasts all in range, and with the Viking ship craft, the leader in long-distance deepwater trade.
Later on it evolves into a regular trade port, and the Portuguese eye it up as a wealthy target, using knowledge of the Azorian shipcraft to build a fleet to invade. At which point the community is doomed (unless it somehow builds a weird trade league/alliance with the Taifa states.) In fact, a Taifa/Azores/Asturian Trade League as an alliance network that evolves into a single political entity might look really interesting.
If the Norse find it, I reckon they'd probably use it as such.
For a PoD? Have a raiding party raid S.Spain or N.Africa, and then, after spending too long on shore, have to flee a fleet. They swing out far to the West to ensure their safety, and after losing their pursuers, continue north and find the Azores. After marking it as a good place to run, they go back Home. Next season they go with some of their clan, as it is a good place to go and raid from, shorter trips, far enough from home that there aren't many competitors. Homesteads become a small state-let, perhaps quite a wealthy one (compared to its population) with the Med and Atlantic coasts all in range, and with the Viking ship craft, the leader in long-distance deepwater trade.
Later on it evolves into a regular trade port, and the Portuguese eye it up as a wealthy target, using knowledge of the Azorian shipcraft to build a fleet to invade. At which point the community is doomed (unless it somehow builds a weird trade league/alliance with the Taifa states.) In fact, a Taifa/Azores/Asturian Trade League as an alliance network that evolves into a single political entity might look really interesting.
It's about 1,500 kilometers (or more) from the Azores to Iberia or North Africa. That doesn't seem comfortable in the slightest. Why not just use Madeira, vaguely known but uncolonised, for that purpose instead? If you can find the Azores, you can certainly find Madeira.
Madeira is better. I'd completely forgotten about it! Its only weakness is also its strength - it is closer to Morocco/Spain, etc. This leaves it more vulnerable. (Perhaps this hypothetical trading state takes both and then the Canaries?) Making it easier in the early days for reprisals.
I should have said that it was relatively comfortable. Compared to well... The Baltic. After all, some would travel through freaking Russia to raid the Med, a straight sail is a much easier job.
It's still equally haram, unless you buy into the idea that something like araq--or mead, for that matter--does not apply to the regulations regarding Islam and strong drink. Converting that region to Islam probably implies that sort of logic would be widespread.
It really does! I think, considering that my Amalingian Empire timeline already has an early Irish pseudo-Viking era (not nearly as widespread as the Viking raids of OTL, but still more widespread than the Gaelic raids we saw in our own timeline), I may have to work a Gaelic Azores into it. Considering some of the events I have planned already, for the Irish, it would actually be easier than the situation I outlined above!
Particularly in the case of a Viking Azores, would there be any reason for any Azores-Iceland-Greenland traffic? Or Azores-Vinland traffic, while that area is in contact?
At certain times of year the winds allow it for one to travel to the Azores from North America and vice versa, and while the Norse may be able to exploit the trade winds they'll still need a rest stop.
Interesting if we look at the winds
I would say that if the Norse discover and settle Azores, they will find out they need to go further south to return, which could lead to the Canary Islands and maybe even Cape Verde being settled by them.
I think if the Norse colonies these islands, we will likely see them dominated by small principalities. The settlers would likely be Danes rather than Norwegians as in the North Atlantic islands. We would likely see the population being of mixed Norse-Iberian/Maghreb descents (males line from Scandinavia and female lines from the western Mediterranean).
They would likely be Christian, there's little reason for them to become Muslim and the Paganism was on its way out. Piracy would likely become less and less important source of income, but on the other hand, they're perfect placed to continue it and if they have a lot of internal warfare, they may also serve as mercenaries in European wars, as some kinds of island Switzerland. They're in a better position than the North Atlantic islands to stay independent, as the little Ice Age won't push them to the edge of survival.
They will likely not have contact to the North Atlantic islands. They may accidental discover America, but they may also not. If they discover it, they will likely start colonise the Caribbean and expand from there. But I think any colonising attempt will happens relative late, if it happens, likely only a century before Columbus.
I doubt they will survive as independent states in the early modern age, unless they have begun the colonisation of America and become important mercantile states. Portugal are the most likely to take them over.
I would say that if the Norse discover and settle Azores, they will find out they need to go further south to return, which could lead to the Canary Islands and maybe even Cape Verde being settled by them.
I think if the Norse colonies these islands, we will likely see them dominated by small principalities. The settlers would likely be Danes rather than Norwegians as in the North Atlantic islands. We would likely see the population being of mixed Norse-Iberian/Maghreb descents (males line from Scandinavia and female lines from the western Mediterranean).
They would likely be Christian, there's little reason for them to become Muslim and the Paganism was on its way out. Piracy would likely become less and less important source of income, but on the other hand, they're perfect placed to continue it and if they have a lot of internal warfare, they may also serve as mercenaries in European wars, as some kinds of island Switzerland. They're in a better position than the North Atlantic islands to stay independent, as the little Ice Age won't push them to the edge of survival.
They will likely not have contact to the North Atlantic islands. They may accidental discover America, but they may also not. If they discover it, they will likely start colonise the Caribbean and expand from there. But I think any colonising attempt will happens relative late, if it happens, likely only a century before Columbus.
I doubt they will survive as independent states in the early modern age, unless they have begun the colonisation of America and become important mercantile states. Portugal are the most likely to take them over.
I always heard that since ships were often becalmed in those seas, they'd throw the horses overboard to save water/other supplies for the sailors. I don't actually know if that's the true explanation, though. The Wikipedia page seems to give other ones I've never heard.
Well, how about the Norse sailing due South from Iceland (with prevailing Westerly winds from abeam) till they reach the latitude of Portugal, then running downwind for Lisbon? It is homeward bound that they have to sail north along European coast to Faroes before they can turn to Iceland...
How popular with Norse were direct trips Iceland to Southwest Europe, i. e. making the first landfall after Iceland anywhere south of Ireland?
How popular with Norse were direct trips Iceland to Southwest Europe, i. e. making the first landfall after Iceland anywhere south of Ireland?