Pretty self explanatory. Have at least two East Germanic languages survive till present day
AHC: Surviving East Germanic languages
- Thread starter Tomislav Addai
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- ahc germanic language goths vandals
To me the easiest PoDs are those that have the least dramatic effects. With that in mind I’d try to sketch out a scenario without massive Migration Era changes.
The 530 Vandalic coup in Carthage fails and relations between the Vandalic Kingdom and the Eastern Roman Empire remain cordial. Eventually, instead of outright conquest the Vandals become clients of East Rome; they experience a cultural golden age and manage to have the Bible translated into Vandalic.
The Arabs still expand during the 7th century and North Africa is overrun and conquered. However, members of the Vandalic court and leadership flee by ship to Malta, which they have been fortifying against Ostrogothic or Lombardic invasion for decades. Eventually, Malta speaks a highly divergent form of the Vandalic language.
Meanwhile, the Gothic tribes of Taurica find success under a less stressed Byzantine Empire in later centuries. Eventually, their language becomes the lingua franca of Byzantine territories in the region.
The 530 Vandalic coup in Carthage fails and relations between the Vandalic Kingdom and the Eastern Roman Empire remain cordial. Eventually, instead of outright conquest the Vandals become clients of East Rome; they experience a cultural golden age and manage to have the Bible translated into Vandalic.
The Arabs still expand during the 7th century and North Africa is overrun and conquered. However, members of the Vandalic court and leadership flee by ship to Malta, which they have been fortifying against Ostrogothic or Lombardic invasion for decades. Eventually, Malta speaks a highly divergent form of the Vandalic language.
Meanwhile, the Gothic tribes of Taurica find success under a less stressed Byzantine Empire in later centuries. Eventually, their language becomes the lingua franca of Byzantine territories in the region.
One: something with Gepidic roots hidden away in the Carpathian forests, probably taking on many Vlach-Romance and a few Slavic, Magyar, and Turkic loanwords and traits, but still. Like Vlachs, they survive as scattered communities under various overlords. If they hold out until the Magyars come along, the Magyars may employ them as border guards like the Szekely and allow them to keep their cultural identity, although nominal conversion from (Arian Christianity? paganism?) would soon be required. Rest of the history, they hold on like the Szekely, only better. (Btw, some people in Romania believe the "motzi" (it's a t with a cedille in fact, but I don't have that available here) in the Ore Mountains have some sort of such history.)
Two: Crimean Gothic becomes the inofficial lingua franca of the Khanate of the Crimea and is rooted enough to survive under Russian hegemony later, like so many other languages.
Two: Crimean Gothic becomes the inofficial lingua franca of the Khanate of the Crimea and is rooted enough to survive under Russian hegemony later, like so many other languages.
There's a lot of ways to do this, and I bet there's a way where modern Germany could be swamped with East Germanic peoples which leads to most or all of the modern German-speaking world (including Low German languages) speaking some East Germanic tongue, maybe a fusion of Burgundian, Gothic, Rugian, etc. These East Germanic peoples might leave groups back in modern Poland, some of whom might still speak their ancestral language, and of course if you have East Germanic groups in an area as big as the German-speaking part of Europe, you'd have a lot of linguistic variation. Like say the Burgundians settle in Alsace + Baden and the Rugians settle in Austria, you have two different East Germanic languages which will end up being significantly different from each other over time. But a language is a dialect with an army, so we might only have one "German language" even if we have a "Rugian language" and a "Burgundian language" which are significantly different (as much or more than Spanish and French) yet still are considered only dialects of each other. The problem is finding a way where West Germanic speakers are replaced or assimilated by East Germanic speakers.
But more plausibly, I think if the Gepids had been in the right place like the mountains of Transylvania, they could assimilate Romance speakers, Slavs, Magyars, Cumans, etc. and their language remain strong. At most, these Gepids could entirely replace Romania in history, leaving the Aromanians and such as the only representatives of Eastern Romance languages. And maybe you could have a second group along the Vistula or somewhere who maintain their identity as (Arian, but maybe later Catholic/Orthodox) Christians against the pagan Slavs. You might be able to have a few groups like this, maybe a bit like how there's many Eastern Romance-speaking groups (and historically a few more which assimilated in Early Modern times). I think Austria/Slovenia might be a good place for this, where we might have Rugians migrate into the mountains and maintain a separate culture from other German speakers. The Crimean Goths would play into this too, being able to maintain their language TTL instead of being assimilated into some other Germanic speaking (yet non-East Germanic) population which took their name like OTL.
The Vandals were pretty assimilated into North African culture, though, and pretty quickly. Their leaders were supporting Latin-language poets, and Latin was still the dominant language as it had been for centuries. I can't imagine there'd be a lot of demand for a Vandal Bible when the majority of Vandals ended up speaking Latin before long. They were just a minor element on the cultural fusion between Roman, Berber, and Punic culture, even if they were the ruling class. I think you'd need a Vandal equivalent to the Ulfilas Bible which would need to be written around the same time.
Malta is definitely a plausible refuge point for the Vandalic language though, since OTL it could easily have been one for African Romance languages or Punic.
But more plausibly, I think if the Gepids had been in the right place like the mountains of Transylvania, they could assimilate Romance speakers, Slavs, Magyars, Cumans, etc. and their language remain strong. At most, these Gepids could entirely replace Romania in history, leaving the Aromanians and such as the only representatives of Eastern Romance languages. And maybe you could have a second group along the Vistula or somewhere who maintain their identity as (Arian, but maybe later Catholic/Orthodox) Christians against the pagan Slavs. You might be able to have a few groups like this, maybe a bit like how there's many Eastern Romance-speaking groups (and historically a few more which assimilated in Early Modern times). I think Austria/Slovenia might be a good place for this, where we might have Rugians migrate into the mountains and maintain a separate culture from other German speakers. The Crimean Goths would play into this too, being able to maintain their language TTL instead of being assimilated into some other Germanic speaking (yet non-East Germanic) population which took their name like OTL.
The Vandals were pretty assimilated into North African culture, though, and pretty quickly. Their leaders were supporting Latin-language poets, and Latin was still the dominant language as it had been for centuries. I can't imagine there'd be a lot of demand for a Vandal Bible when the majority of Vandals ended up speaking Latin before long. They were just a minor element on the cultural fusion between Roman, Berber, and Punic culture, even if they were the ruling class. I think you'd need a Vandal equivalent to the Ulfilas Bible which would need to be written around the same time.
Malta is definitely a plausible refuge point for the Vandalic language though, since OTL it could easily have been one for African Romance languages or Punic.
As someone who has studied the Gothic language, it kicked me on my ass so many times it's not even funny, the damned grammar case system made me take a break, the best I can suggest is having the Crimean Gothic population keep kicking in large enough numbers to be akin to the Sorbs or Rusyns of OTL.
Past that, a POD with larger butterflies is have the Dniper Gothic realm survive and win out against the Huns.
Past that, a POD with larger butterflies is have the Dniper Gothic realm survive and win out against the Huns.
I guess that depends on the definition of a language. Some "languages" are considered separate, even though they are mutually understandable, like Norwegian and Swedish. Remnants of Crimean Gothic is believed to have survived until the 18th century in isolated places, so I guess a post-medieval POD should be possible for that to survive. Could it even develop two different standards?
I like the idea of remnant Gepid population surviving in Szeklerland and replacing the Szekler. You can do this without changing history a lot, if we ignore butterflies. Such a population will likely get a lot of Slavonic, Romanian and Hungarian loanwords until the Transsylvanian Saxon settle in the region, after which German will replace as the main language Gepidian (it will likely be called Gothic) will borrow from. I think a conversion to Catholicism will be likely. But as the Reformation hit, they will go Protestant. But without the connection to Hungarian and a likely close relationship with the local "Saxons". We will likely see them go Lutheran (as results of the Transsylvanian protestant coming from the same sect, they will likely push for the conversion of the local Romanian Catholics, which could push them toward adopting Gothic). Their language will be distinct enough (East Germanic was closer related to the Scandinavian languages than to the West Germanic) that they will make their own Bible rather than using a German one. It's here we begin to see the world become different. The Gepids or "Transsylvanian Goths" will lack the same connection to the Hungarian kingdom as the Szekler had. As result we will likely see them create a much regional identity and not challenge Habsburg control over Hungary. I could see as result of this, that they will likely be able to make a better deal with the Habsburg, where they're allowed to keep Lutheranism as the state religion of Transsylvania.
Another thing is to keep Arianism around. It might be bit tricky. At least with strong Catholic Church.
Some interesting thoughts.. I knew everyone would think of Romania, but I haven't thought of Transylvania
How similar were the East Germanic tongues to one another? Gothic being the big one, but also Vandalic, Burgundian, Rugian, and Gepidian apparently being part of them as well.
Probably hard to say when Gothic is only language which we fully know and about Vandalic we know just some names. But probably they were so close as Scandinavian languages are with each others.
Probably closer for the Gothic languages and Gepid, in fact I think the difference between American and British English would be more likely, with Vandalic and Burgundian maybe being as different from them and each other as Scots.
We only know of Gothic in depth, as it is the only East Germanic language that we found written accounts for.
Could the ATL Gepids have survive in a territory roughly composed of the OTL Romanian countries of Cluj, Bihor, Arad, Sălaj, Satu Mare, Alba, Maramureș, Hunedoara and Bistriţa-Năsăud so it basically shares borders with present day Hungary and Ukraine?
Considering the isolation of the Crimean Gothic communities it was likely that at the time of extinction it could well have been multiple languages depending on how people measure the whole language/dialect thing....
Maybe a scenario such as those Goths who convert to Islam keep using Gothic as so it becomes what we would call Tatar today but from a different origin with a equally massive Turkic influence by atl 2018. Another group could arise resisting the Turkic-Islamic influence and potentially becoming what we would consider to be Cossacks. While Russian would also replace it to a great degree, Gothic would remain the de facto language of the regiment and their kin. Straight away we have two modern Gothic languages. For more maybe we could see an earlier expulsion of these Gothic Tartars and as a group they are divided in multiple directions. Therefore we could have by the present day multiple highly divergent dialects in Turkey, Siberia and likely Central Asia. That could give you four related though all uniquely descendants of Gothic with very little butterflies (assumedly).
Certainly the Alps could provide for maybe a handful of villages speaking Gothic and or Burgundian much like we have Romansh otl. Maybe a group of descendants of Visigoths could survive somewhere in Asturias or even in say Andorra.
Maybe a scenario such as those Goths who convert to Islam keep using Gothic as so it becomes what we would call Tatar today but from a different origin with a equally massive Turkic influence by atl 2018. Another group could arise resisting the Turkic-Islamic influence and potentially becoming what we would consider to be Cossacks. While Russian would also replace it to a great degree, Gothic would remain the de facto language of the regiment and their kin. Straight away we have two modern Gothic languages. For more maybe we could see an earlier expulsion of these Gothic Tartars and as a group they are divided in multiple directions. Therefore we could have by the present day multiple highly divergent dialects in Turkey, Siberia and likely Central Asia. That could give you four related though all uniquely descendants of Gothic with very little butterflies (assumedly).
Certainly the Alps could provide for maybe a handful of villages speaking Gothic and or Burgundian much like we have Romansh otl. Maybe a group of descendants of Visigoths could survive somewhere in Asturias or even in say Andorra.
Teejay
Gone Fishin'
You would have to prevent the Slavic migrations from occurring to prevent the East Germanic languages from becoming extinct. In that sort of TL Romanian is part of a continuum of Romance dialects stretching through much of the Balkans and Pannonia (although the Maygar migrations would interrupt this). Turkic languages would dominate on the Pontic-Caspian steppes. Finnic languages would dominate much of European Russia, while Slavic would be restricted to OTL Belarus and Western Ukraine.
Much of modern day Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovakia would be speaking dialects of a East Germanic language.
Much of modern day Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovakia would be speaking dialects of a East Germanic language.
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