AHC restore the German Monarchy

The challenge is to restore the German monarchy anytime from 1918 to 1939 when world war 2 started in OTL,up to you the POD and how it happens and extra points if you can get Wilhelm II to be the monarch when monarchy restored
 
The challenge is to restore the German monarchy anytime from 1918 to 1939 when world war 2 started in OTL, up to you the POD and how it happens and extra points if you can get Wilhelm II to be the monarch when monarchy restored

Only thing I can think about in which the monarchy isn't forced to abdicate by the end of WWI, aka Germany aren't so screwed over like OTL, though though it does mean that Wilhelm III takes the throne (Willy II was too much of hate figure among much in Allied propaganda) and that would mean having a more rational Kaiser would be a good chance to mend international relations though it's very likely the monarchy would likely become a constitutional monarchy in order to give the people more power.

That's all I can think off for the German monarchy.
 
Actually, this could have happened. Monarchism in Germany was relatively strong in the German military leadership, especially amongst the Old Guard (Hindenburg & crew). It was only the ascent of the Nazis - who regarded the monarchies of Europe as ineffectual, decadent, and backwards - that put an end to any hope of a restored monarchy. Of course, the possibility of a Hohenzollern restoration was complicated by the fact that the actual pretender (Louis Ferdinand’s father) was a useful idiot for the Nazis and energetically supported them until it became apparent no such thing would happen.

I remember one incident where the monarchy was almost restored, although its veracity is debated. In the early 30s, the German chancellor Bruning (supposedly) proposed a monarchical restoration. The Nazis at this point had gained a plurality in the Reichstag, but were still spending time cozying up to the Junkers. The German "establishment" (so to speak) was not enthusiastic about a group of vulgar populists led by an "Austrian corporal." Bruning's government was backed by the President, not by popular support, and he feared that if Hindenburg were to die (the guy was in his mid-80s), the Nazis might come to power. He proposed calling off the 1932 election, extending the Presidential term, and then proposing to the Reichstag that a Hohenzollern be restored. The problem arose over which Hohenzollern - Hindenburg was staunchly loyal to one man only, Wilhelm II, who was unacceptable to labor unions, socialists, and much of Germany's urban areas. Bruning's proposal was thus defeated, but if Hindenburg had been amenable to the possibility of allowing say, the Kaiser's grandson to be Emperor then a monarchical restoration is conceivable. Of course, that would upset the Allied powers (since that would mean the old conservative elements from WWI were back in power), but that's a different problem.
 
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I posted about this in 2017 at https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/hohenzollern-restoration-in-1932.429723/

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"In his posthumously published memoirs Brüning claims, without support of contemporaneous documents, that he hit upon a last-ditch solution to prevent Hitler from taking power—restoring the Hohenzollern monarchy. He planned to persuade the Reichstag to cancel the 1932 presidential election and extend Hindenburg's term. He would have then had parliament proclaim a monarchy, with Hindenburg as regent. Upon Hindenburg's death, one of Crown Prince William's sons would have been invited to assume the throne. The restored monarchy would have been a British-style constitutional monarchy in which real power would have rested with the legislature.[citation needed]

"He managed to garner support from all of the major parties except the Nationalists, Communists and Nazis, making it very likely that the plan would get the two-thirds majority required for passage. The plan foundered, however, when Hindenburg, an old-line monarchist, refused to support restoration of the monarchy unless Emperor William II was called back from exile in the Netherlands. When Brüning tried to impress upon him that neither the Social Democrats nor the international community would accept any return of the deposed emperor, Hindenburg threw him out of his office.[5]..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Brüning

Let's assume that Brüning actually did plan this--and that Hindenburg had gone along. Could the plan have gotten a two-thirds vote in the Reichstag elected in 1930? (Remember, this has to be before the March 1932 scheduled presidential election, and therefore before the July 1932 Reichstag election, where the NSDAP and KPD combined got a majority of the seats, obviously making it impossible for Brüning's alleged plan to get a majority, let alone two-thirds.) In the Reichstag elected in 1930 the NSDAP and KPD combined had 31.88% of the seats--not enough to block the measure if all other parties agreed to it. The key therefore is the attitide of the DNVP which had 7.11% of the seats. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_1930 On the one hand, it might seem strange that many deputies from the DNVP--which was a monarchist party at heart--would want to oppose restoration of the monarchy. OTOH, it actually shouldn't be so surprising they objected to this plan. After all, the *immediate* effect ot the plan sould be to extend Hindenburg's stay in power, and in 1932 there had been a total reversal of German right-wing attitudes toward Hindenburg compared with 1925. According to one ecological regression estimate, about 50 percent of first-round Duesterberg voters in 1932 supported Hitler in the second round, compared to only 15 percent who supported Hindenburg (about 28 percent didn't vote at all and 7 percent voted for Thalmann). Table 9B in https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/42110234.pdf

Still, if Hindenburg had pressed for the measure, probably some DNVP deputies could accept that even a constitutional monarchy headed by someone other than Wilhelm II and supported by Social Democrats would be a lesser evil than a continuation of the republic--or even the dictatorship of a plebian Führer whose wooing of conservatives was pretty clearly opportunistic. So let's say that with the support of some though not all DNVP deputies, Brüning's plan is enacted.

Would this actually prevent an NSDAP government? I doubt it. Very likely Hitler would have forced his way into the Chancellorship (after all he headed the largest party in the Reichstag after July 1932 and many non-Nazi German conservatives were willing to acquiesce in a Hitler-led government) and manipulated the young Kaiser into playing the same figurehead role for him the King of Italy played for Mussolini when the latter established his one-party dictatorship. (A standard joke of mine in replying to people who lament the end of the German monarchy in 1918: "It's a good thing that Italy and Japan remained monarchies after World War I. Otherwise, they might have gone fascist...")

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According to one of the replies, the Wikipedia article is not quite accurate:

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I'm afraid, the english speaking wiki-community has kinda ... "mixed up" some things or whoever "peer-viewed" the article ...

The claim about the Brüning memoirs is right. He actually stated there, that he thought of such a solution ... in the longer run, ... after a ... "natural" relief of office of Hindenburg.

Brünings idea at the change of 1931/32 - prior to the Reichspräsidenten-election - was to elongated Hindenburgs tenure of office.
Avoid any further elections AT ALL by presidential power (something every other party beside the NSDAP and -perhaps- the communists were VERY happy about).
Cause the Reichstag to "postpone" itself (almost) indefinitly, then "installing" a presidential rule by piece-by-piece change of constitution by presidential decrees.
And THEN recall one of the Hohenzollerns.

That was at least what he stated he proposed as a plan to Hindenburg and the latters surrounding (i.e. the son Oskar) during this time as well as in early 1932 after the presidential election.

He also garnered ... some support of the idea of "continuation" of Hindenburgs tenure of office by parliament without another election. Though the SPD support for this idea was IIRC never explicitly spoken out by any high-ranking SPD ember. There was only no open objection by the more important party leaders as i.e. Otto Braun.
I am pretty sure Brüning never ever mentioned the idea of a monarchy/Hohenzollern-restauration in front of a SPD-member. That was an absolute no-go. The SPD would have lost immediatly about 1/2 of its members and at least the same amount of non-party-member supporters and voters to the communists.
The creation of the republik was THE reason-d-etre of the SPD.

NSDAP and KPD had 184 seats together. To "block" a constitutional change 193 votes (of all 577 RT-members, IF all are actually present) would be needed. That's 9 to go.
At least 4-5 votes (of 19 seats) would come from the "Landvolk", the party of the east-prussian junkers, who hated Brüning more, than they would support Hindenburg ... and who were quite well connected to the NSDAP.
Then there is the other "agrarian" party, the CSVd, an offspring (mainly) of the DNVP and the "Landvolk" of the small to medium, protestantic northern germany farmers, who originated in parts from the agraioan niorthgerman uprisings in 1927-1929, which happened with A LOT of Nazi-participation.
Another 2-3 votes (of 14 seats) voting with the Nazis, against Brüning.
Then there are the "others", 10 seats, more or less independant persons without much of a connenction to Brüning. ... more the opposite, opposition for the sake of opposition.

It would be a damn close draw. And in such a situation the number of the actuall present RT-members would alos play a BIG role. Due to "party-discipline" the NSDAP and KPD would be very likely "complete".

But the others ? The "silent" supporters of the Nazis already present in the DNVP and all other mid-to-mid-right parties ?

Brüning knew, that he needed at least the Nazis within the boat to be "safe" with a prolonged Hindenburg-presidency. The IOTL "move" to gather such a 2/3 majority has to be seen completly set apart from Brüning monarchy-restoration ... thoughts.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...ern-restoration-in-1932.429723/#post-15952591
 

Deleted member 94680

Help us to find a way, ja?
Did there need to be an abolition of the Monarchy in the first place? It wasn’t specified as a precondition of peace anywhere IIRC, it was implied in one of Wilson’s three Notes (another thing we can blame that incompetent racist for) and I don’t think the British or French ever asked for it.

Domestically, in Germany, the Proclamation of the Republic was born of the Revolution, which came from the Kiel Mutiny, which came from the insane Naval Order of 24th October 1918. Maybe butterfly the SKL going mad? No Kiel Mutiny, no Revolution?
 
Did there need to be an abolition of the Monarchy in the first place? It wasn’t specified as a precondition of peace anywhere IIRC, it was implied in one of Wilson’s three Notes (another thing we can blame that incompetent racist for) and I don’t think the British or French ever asked for it.

Domestically, in Germany, the Proclamation of the Republic was born of the Revolution, which came from the Kiel Mutiny, which came from the insane Naval Order of 24th October 1918. Maybe butterfly the SKL going mad? No Kiel Mutiny, no Revolution?
The British and French were hoping for the abdication of Wilhelm II, not the abolition of the monarchy as a whole.
Yeah the Monarchy fell due to the Kiel Mutiny. Butterfly that away and most probably the German Monarchy remains.
 

Deleted member 94680

The British and French were hoping for the abdication of Wilhelm II, not the abolition of the monarchy as a whole.
Hoping for maybe, but they never made policy statements to that effect - that I am aware of.

It’s striking that France - Clemenceau’s France at that - the mortal enemy of Germany, never required the monarchy to fall. Britain I’m sure would be far more ambivalent about requiring abolitions of monarchies as a prerequisite to peace, given their own governmental system.
 
Didn't the Kapp putsch want to restore the monarchy?

It is impossible to make it work

Like, I had no idea of what was the Kapp putsch, just that it tried to restore the monarchy, but then the great war channel made a comment that when the Freikorps seized Berlin the whole political spectre of Germany from the furthest to the left to the right striked, and 12 million took part on the strike (that is one in six people stopping to work, and almost every single men), there is no larger strike in German (or even maybe european) history

To put it blunty the whole country didn't wanted to restore the monarchy yet

Maybe if you butterfly the nazis and elect the DNVP on it's monarchist phase this can help, they make a deal with the other parties to get the Kaiser but remove most of his power, or you get the DNVP to make a dictatorship and restore him by force
 
First of all: A restoration of the monarchy after 1918 is damn difficult. Yes, there were still many monarchist-minded conservatives who hated the republic as much as the devil hates holy water, but their monarchist sentiment was more a political-glorified nostalgia than a practical demand: The flight of Wilhelm II and his son during the revolution had produced the reputation of "desertion", ie treason of the fatherland in times of need, in the ranks of the right. Wilhelm II and his son were not able to have a political majority. If Wilhelm had received permission from his father Wilhelm II to run in 1932, he would have lost, provided that the center, the DDP and the SPD could have agreed on a candidate.

How so? Because the Prussian monarchy has never been enthusiastically supported by workers and Catholics and in 1918 it had discredited itself in their eyes. The same people may have supported Paul von Hindenburg, but not because they saw him as a monarchist, but because he was a war hero and did not stand for the hated party politics.

So there remained the sons of Wilhelm of Prussia. The older and actual pretender to the throne was Wilhelm Friedrich Franz Joseph Christian Olaf Prince of Prussia, who, however, had an inappropriate relationship (and marriage since 1933). The problem: Although he was highly regarded by the people because he broke the barriers of class, he was all the less popular in his own house. His wedding in 1933 meant that he effectively renounced his claim. And his brother Louis Ferdinand married appropriately, but he was very intellectual and not really charismatic. So no one who would win an election with pure charisma.

The easiest way should actually be a successful coup on July 20, 1944, which leads to the restoration of monarchy (the coup plotters were monarchists) after a military dictatorship and which signs an "unconditional surrender", like Japan's ruling house.
 

Deleted member 94680

The easiest way should actually be a successful coup on July 20, 1944,
That’s the easiest way? Oh dear
which leads to the restoration of monarchy (the coup plotters were monarchists)
Some of the plotters were monarchists. Most weren’t and some were even in favour of aligning with the Soviet Union.
after a military dictatorship and which signs an "unconditional surrender", like Japan's ruling house.
I can’t see that flying at all.
 
That’s the easiest way? Oh dear

Some of the plotters were monarchists. Most weren’t and some were even in favour of aligning with the Soviet Union.

I can’t see that flying at all.
Yeah, it's a pretty hard road but I don't see any other realistic restauration which doesn't involve multiple PODs. You would need:
1. A way to push the SPD more to the KPD so that it gets alienated from Zentrum and DDP. This way you could push national liberals more to conservatives.
2. A popular Conservative who seriously wants to restore the monarchy at some point but isn't clinging to Wilhelm II. and his son.
3. A way to integrate the NSDAP in a coalition centered around said Conservative.

And yes, only some coup plotters were monarchists but I think most wouldn't mind a restauration of the monarchy so they don't have to sign an unconditional surrender. A reconciliation with the Soviet Union was not what the leading plotters wanted and what the Wehrmacht would have accepted. I mean, even famous conservative critics of Nazi policy (such as bishop van Galen) approved the invasion of the Soviet Union to destroy the "bolshevist menace".
 
What about all the other Geman monarchies within the old Empire?. I often read about the "restoration of the monarchy" and it usually implies The Imperial Crown of the Prussian Kings in the Hohenzollern Dynasty. Remember, the German Empire included some autonomous Kingdoms, Bavaria, Saxony, Wurtemburg, and Grand Duchies, Duchies and Principalities. Were the populations of those monarchies more loyal to their former sovereigns or that of their former Emperor? After all, the Kings of Prussia, Wilhelm I and II, and Frederick III were titled the German Emperors. not Emperors of Germany.
 
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I think the coup idea is a good one, but 1938 or even 1943 is a better POD than 1944.

Since the coup is against a government that is already a dictatorship, popular support or party support is less of an issue. But there is more political space before the war.

Monarchies, constitutional or otherwise, have never prevented dictatorships. They have been involved at various times in ending or softening dictatorships.
 
Maybe a type of military fascism like in Spain could arise instead of Naziism and the German Franco could restore it upon his death.
 
What about all the other Geman monarchies within the old Empire?. I often read about the "restoration of the monarchy" and it usually implies The Imperial Crown of the Prussian Kings in the Hohenzollern Dynasty. Remember, the German Empire included some autonomous Kingdoms, Bavaria, Saxony, Wurtemburg, and Grand Duchies, Duchies and Principalities. Were the populations of those monarchies more loyal to their former sovereigns or that of their former Emperor? After all, the Kings of Prussia, Wilhelm I and II, and Frederick III were titled the German Emperors. not Emperors of Germany.

I think that is a very valid point.
Unlike the Hohenzollern dynasty which was not especially popular, the Wittelsbach, the Saxon rulers, Wurttemberg King etc were all well liked and respected by their subjects.
I cannot conceive any scenario where the war ends in 1918 and Wilhelm keeps his throne or is restored. The logical scenario would have been a restoration in Bavaria, Saxony etc in the early 1920s which lead to Prussia being restored. A fairer system, maybe similar to what we have in modern Malaysia may have ensured a less Prussian dominated Germany.
 

Deleted member 94680

A reconciliation with the Soviet Union was not what the leading plotters wanted and what the Wehrmacht would have accepted.
There was no such thing as the “leading plotters”. There were proposed members of a proposed cabinet if the few active military members had managed to assassinate Hitler and they had somehow magically managed to gain control of Germany. If a reconciliation with the Soviet Union was not what was wanted, how does that explain the dual proposals for Foreign Minister? The Kresau Circle? If the Wehrmacht weren’t interested, what of the pre-War cooperation? Anyway, who’s in charge of the Wehrmacht in this mythical Germany anyway?
 
There was no such thing as the “leading plotters”. There were proposed members of a proposed cabinet if the few active military members had managed to assassinate Hitler and they had somehow magically managed to gain control of Germany. If a reconciliation with the Soviet Union was not what was wanted, how does that explain the dual proposals for Foreign Minister? The Kresau Circle? If the Wehrmacht weren’t interested, what of the pre-War cooperation? Anyway, who’s in charge of the Wehrmacht in this mythical Germany anyway?
Of course there was. After the coup the power would have rested in the hand of the Wehrmacht, not some political-interested circle like the Kreisau Circle. And the leading Wehrmacht generals (most of whom knew one way or another about the coup or plotted it themselves) were definitely not a huge fan of the Soviet Union and their anti-communism was pretty strong long before Hitler.
 
There is another interesting option, I believe I read somewhere that one suggestion that was proposed post-war was to place the House of Wittelsbach on the throne. This would have been interesting because they had been very anti-nazi, and some of the family had even been sent to concentration camps. They also don't have the whole Prussian militaristic culture for the allies to worry about.
 
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