AHC: Portuguese Andalusia
- Thread starter Will Kürlich Kerl
- Start date
Well it is, at least partially : Gharb Al-Andalus became the Portuguese Algrave after all.
The problems at hand being, obviously the sheer dominance of Leon/Castille over the peninsula but as well diverging interest of Portugal and Aragon, eventually more about maritime dominance and expansion.
You could end with more of western Al-Andalus falling into the "Kingdom of Algrave" (with a lasting conquest of south-western taifas, without Almohads showing up), but Leon/Castille dominance would be eventually there to stop a too great expension (as it happened IOTL, with Portuguese king acknowledging for a time Algrave being a fiefdom they had within Castille, not unlike Plantagenet Guyenne in France).
So the best way is to screw Castille importantly enough : which brings another problem. Too weakened and its neighbours would take over it; not enough and it would recover (as it did IOTL, while being significantly weakened by XIVth/XVth civil wars). The balance there would be really hard to get, and nearly impossible to maintain.
Eventually, its late appearance, its narrow geopolitical "window of opportunity" and regular civil wars made Portugal unable, IMO, to get all of southern Spain. Maybe more of Gharb Al-Andalus, with at best a Tinto/Sierra Morena border, but not all of it, and even less all of southern Spain.
It doesn't help that Al-Andalus (and taifas) heartlands were more in the south-eastern part than in the west.
The problems at hand being, obviously the sheer dominance of Leon/Castille over the peninsula but as well diverging interest of Portugal and Aragon, eventually more about maritime dominance and expansion.
You could end with more of western Al-Andalus falling into the "Kingdom of Algrave" (with a lasting conquest of south-western taifas, without Almohads showing up), but Leon/Castille dominance would be eventually there to stop a too great expension (as it happened IOTL, with Portuguese king acknowledging for a time Algrave being a fiefdom they had within Castille, not unlike Plantagenet Guyenne in France).
So the best way is to screw Castille importantly enough : which brings another problem. Too weakened and its neighbours would take over it; not enough and it would recover (as it did IOTL, while being significantly weakened by XIVth/XVth civil wars). The balance there would be really hard to get, and nearly impossible to maintain.
Eventually, its late appearance, its narrow geopolitical "window of opportunity" and regular civil wars made Portugal unable, IMO, to get all of southern Spain. Maybe more of Gharb Al-Andalus, with at best a Tinto/Sierra Morena border, but not all of it, and even less all of southern Spain.
It doesn't help that Al-Andalus (and taifas) heartlands were more in the south-eastern part than in the west.
Andalucía speaks the Andalucian dialect of Castilian. Portugal speaks Portuguese, which is related to ancient Galician. So any union of Portugal and Andalusia would have to date back to before the 12th century (when Portugal adopted their Galician dialect as official language).
Of course, Portugal/Andalusia could be bilingual, or it could be Portuguese speaking with Andalucian a local dialect either protected, tolerated, discouraged or even suppressed. But that would still make Portugal not a uniform nation but rather an uneasy union of Atlantic Portuguese and Andalucian Portuguese.
Of course, Portugal/Andalusia could be bilingual, or it could be Portuguese speaking with Andalucian a local dialect either protected, tolerated, discouraged or even suppressed. But that would still make Portugal not a uniform nation but rather an uneasy union of Atlantic Portuguese and Andalucian Portuguese.
At that point, Andalusia didn't speak Castillian; they spoke Arabic. Had the region been conquered by the Portuguese instead of the Castillians, they'd presumably be speaking a dialect of Portuguese today.
Frankly, it's near impossible without screwing massively Leon-Castille.
And even there, for Portugal maintaining its control of Sevilla, it would require Leon-Castille to stay impossibly screwed (which would means an absorbtion of it by Portugal or Aragon which in turn would make Portugal or Aragon being at least partially Castillanized*)
By the time Portugal could realistically hope get a grasp on Algrave, Castille was already the big player in the region.
Portugal achieving an incomplete victory in the War of Castilian Succession achieves precisely that. The Castilian crown may have been partitioned. Pre-war deals for partition were attempted.
The thing it wouldn't be a Portuguese Andalusia, but part of Castillan Andalusia on a Portuguese-Castillan crown. Eventually, you'd have more chances to end with a more Castillanized Algrave than a more Lisutanized Andalusia.
Assuming this uneasy partition could held.
What I'd like to know is: how far back do you have to go to replace Castillian as the dominant culture/whatever in Iberia, and what could it be replaced with? Leonese? Some kind of Pamplonese mish-mash?
An entirely victorious Portugal in the WCS would likely see itself culturally drowned by the Castilian population, yes.
But OTL pre-war partition proposals were for Portugal to take over Galicia and Leon (and the Canaries and... Seville, too? can't remember). Anyway, ATL's expanded Portugal following this pattern would be far from having a Castilian cultural matrix. It'd be more of a multi-cultural crown.
I'm not sure that *Leonese would be really distinct than Castillan ITTL, unless with an Ansbau-like separation (as it happened with Catalan and Occitan IOTL). Which is possible but doesn't strikes me as the obvious outcome, unless with a really earlier separation between two centers.
You may end with a bi-dialectal/cultural system rather than two cultures, IMO.
Eventually, I think that the easier (but not the latest) PoD may be in the VIIIth or IXth centuries : with an earlier fall of North-Eastern Al-Andalus and especially the al-Tagr al-A'la (Superior March) falling into an "Aragonese" (culturally speaking) equivalent (Maybe Navarro-Aragonese).
If it diverts enough energy from Leonese/Castillans, you may even see a stronger Lusitanian continuity.
I'm not sure you'd end with one clearly dominating Hispano-Roman culture, that said (at least in a first time), but it would still prevent Castillan domination.
Of course, it's just a rough idea : it would ask for more work and refinement to make it looks more or less plausible.
You may end with a bi-dialectal/cultural system rather than two cultures, IMO.
Eventually, I think that the easier (but not the latest) PoD may be in the VIIIth or IXth centuries : with an earlier fall of North-Eastern Al-Andalus and especially the al-Tagr al-A'la (Superior March) falling into an "Aragonese" (culturally speaking) equivalent (Maybe Navarro-Aragonese).
If it diverts enough energy from Leonese/Castillans, you may even see a stronger Lusitanian continuity.
I'm not sure you'd end with one clearly dominating Hispano-Roman culture, that said (at least in a first time), but it would still prevent Castillan domination.
Of course, it's just a rough idea : it would ask for more work and refinement to make it looks more or less plausible.
Right, I was thinking about a partition of Andalusia and part of Castille proper based on Juanista's regional support. My bad.
That said, I'm really not sure that Seville was part of such proposal (but admittedly, I can't find occurence within the books I've at hand) : it was one of the most important Castillan cities, and while giving up Leon, Galicia (and I think that part of Extramadure was included) was a blow, giving up Seville and its economical/demographical importance wouldn't have been a really good move.
Remember that Seville was among the main (if not the main) city on Castille, and that the whole region was an important focus would it be only trough plantation economy. Let alone the likely possibility to see Castille/Aragon trying to get it back at the first opportunity, it would be surprising to see it Lusitanized.
Perhaps a successful Alfonso De La Cerda gains Leon and his descendants unite it with Portugal. Leonese would get more Portogalician influence (and vice versa) making more of a Iberian language continuum.
Still it'd only result in a "greater Algarve" (inc Sevilla), so Western Andalusia
Well, it could work geopolitically (although I think that the usual reunion of Leon/Castille is more plausible than a definitive separation), but I'm not sure it wouldn't have been too late to make Leonese speeches a part of Galaico-Portuguese continuum : there were already well established litterature and cultural features at this point.
That said, Seville would be still outside the regions first concerned by the PoD, and the Castillan focus on their western, south-western borders is going to be even more important with a Portugal/Leon. I don't really think its conquest by Portugal would be an obvious outcome of the PoD.
That said, Seville would be still outside the regions first concerned by the PoD, and the Castillan focus on their western, south-western borders is going to be even more important with a Portugal/Leon. I don't really think its conquest by Portugal would be an obvious outcome of the PoD.
Very easy, they are already the "passing point" between castilian and galaico-portuguese, and close cohabitation with galaico-portuguese has not been strange, like the "Fala" y leonese Extremadura or "Mirandés" in Portugal.
There's quite a difference between a linguistical "passing point" and being part of a same cultural and linguistic continuum, tough. (Which is still possible to get with enough political focus, to "force" it). What could happen would be the development of asbau language from Leonese (let's call it Lusitano-Castillan) from a political stance, rather than from Galician-Asturian speeches.
Not unlike, if you allow me the comparison, the absence of linguistical/political role that the Crescent played into the frenchification of the region, in spite of being a similar "passing point".
How about a different Iberian Union. Instead of Ferdinand and Isabella marrying, the rulers of Aragon and Portugal marry and 'Spain' becomes Portugal+Aragon, with Castille the odd man out, rather than OTL's 'Spain' = Castille+Aragon, with Portugal the odd man out.