AHC: Japanese Civil War
- Thread starter mlp
- Start date
Not really; France had been training and supplying the Shogunate's military forces, but when the civil war broke out, France instructed her officers to not take part. Not everyone agreed, most famously this guy.
What if the Boshin War becomes a proxy war between European powers? With France maybe backing the Shogunate and another European power backing the Imperial forces? The POD for that would probably have to begin in Europe rather than Japan...
The only thing I can think of that would create a longer civil war would be a second Nanboku-chō period, with the Shogunate proclaiming an Imperial Prince the Emperor. That way they could claim to be supporting the new Emperor against the former one.
Would there be a specific reason why the shogunate would proclaim himself as the new emperor?
NO not the Shogun as Emperor, an imperial Prince. The Shogun proclaiming himself Emperor is tantamount to Cardinal Richelieu proclaiming himself King of France. It would destroy any and all support for the Shogunate.
um...enlighten me on the definition of "imperial prince"... doesn't that mean the shogun would need to be the son of the emperor??
No. It means that the shogun would proclaim another person - an imperial prince, i.e. (if I'm not mistaken) a son, brother, uncle or cousin of the emperor - as the new emperor.
Exactly. An Imperial prince would be a relative of the Emperor, no matter how distant. A member of the Shinnōke branch houses could do.
Look into the Nanboku-chō period. It was an era when there was two Imperial Courts.The Northern Court, which was a puppet of the Ashikaga Shogunate, and the Southern Court, which wanted to restore the Emperor to power. This is essentially what a civil war would look like.
Which one would have a higher possibility of success? A Shogunate-supported Emperor or the original Emperor?
By this point the original Emperor. Look at how quickly the Imperialist forces beat the Shogunate. Even with a puppet Emperor I doubt that the war would last for more than a few years at the longest.
What if the "New Japanese Empire" (write Empire, read Shogunate) was actively supported by the French?
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On another note, lemme ask this question:
The warlord period in China during the 1920s~40s was composed mainly of Chinese elites trained in western institutions during the final days of the Qing dynasty. It simply was that they made cliques and gathered regional armies after returning to their hometowns. Could this sort of situation happen for Japan? (i.e. Choshu five declare Japanese republic, Meiji abdicates, new Japanese emperor declared, etc.)
No to both. First off, even if Napoleon III actively supported the Shogunate, any help he gave would be withdrawn after the Franco-Prussian war begins. So it would be a temporary boost but it wouldn't last long. Second, there were very few foreign educated Japanese by the time of the Meiji Restoration. So there was no one to declare a republic. And thirdly, you VASTLY underestimate the value of the Emperor. No Shogun declared himself Emperor. No one ever tried to seriously create a Republic in Japan. You have to remember that many Japanese considered the Emperor a semi-divine being. The Japanese people wouldn't accept the abolishment of the Imperial institution. A change of Emperors, yes, but tossing out the whole thing, hell no. And people means commoners, samurai and Daimyo.
You misunderstood me- I meant that the shogunate proclaimed a new emperor, i.e. some distant relative to the original emperor. So it would be change of emperor.
Well you did bring up the Chinese cliques so it did throw me off. However, I stand by my opinion. The Shogunate had lost the support of the Daimyo so unless they can regain that confidence more and more of the Feudal lords would see which way the wind is blowing and switch their loyalty to the Imperial Court. Look at the history of the Tokugawa Shogunate. There was little to no uprisings form the foundation of the Tokugawa Shogunate up to the arrival of the black ships. However, after the signing of the unequal treaties there were several uprisings, in favor of the Emperor, which eventually cumulated in the Meiji restoration. Creating their own Emperor and Imperial Court wouldn't help the Shogunate that much.
Okay. If so, what would be something that allows the Japanese Civil War to prolong by several years (Chinese civil war-style is most "satisfactory", so to speak)? Is there nothing that allows this?
Okay. If so, what would be something that allows the Japanese Civil War to prolong by several years (Chinese civil war-style is most "satisfactory", so to speak)? Is there nothing that allows this?
Nothing I can think off. I mean the Meiji Restoration was pretty much a perfect storm scenario. By the point of the Restoration there was nothing the Shogunate could do to help.