AHC: Hawaii a regional/global power!

Premier Taylerov · Mar 20, 2012

Hi guys!

Reading the 'Wierdest Possible Royal Houses' thread (https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=204080) and the 'Political Ideology Game' (https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=225551&page=3) recently, I've been trying to work out a way in which a Hawaiian monarch could be the leader of a Hawaiian power in the Pacific or further afield.

As a result, your challenge is to create an Hawaiian-based government with considerable influence in the region. It can be a monarchy, republic or whatever. The base of power can alter (Amedras in the Royal Houses thread had the Hawaiians inheriting the Chrysanthemum Throne!) but must be chiefly Hawaiian in origin.

Have fun!

eliphas8 · Mar 20, 2012

It was a regional power in its own era, its just that the standards for what a regional power are in Pacific Islands is quite low.

von kressenstein · Mar 20, 2012

eliphas8 said:
It was a regional power in its own era, its just that the standards for what a regional power are in Pacific Islands is quite low.

My fleet of pineapple tossing battle cruiser canoes against your dreadnaughts!

Premier Taylerov · Mar 20, 2012

eliphas8 said:
It was a regional power in its own era, its just that the standards for what a regional power are in Pacific Islands is quite low.

True.
I mean a power with enough clout of, say, Japan.
That kind of imperial power.

Winnabago · Mar 20, 2012

Can we move a couple of asteroids around a few billion years ago and make Hawaii ridiculously fertile and flat?

Also, let’s give it a good harbor while we’re at it, and duct tape a couple more harbor islands relatively nearby.

If we could do that, Hawaii could act as a middleman between East Asia and the Americas by providing safe harbor in the desolate seas in between.

Julius Vogel · Mar 20, 2012

With a different, slower European exploration of the Pacific, it could be that a Greater Polynesia forms, with Hawaii, Tonga, Samoa and NZ as members. The problem is that I don't see that a unitary empire could form with such widely scattered peoples, despite common origins of their history, culture and language.

Maybe some sort of loose confederation with Hawaii (as Hawaiki) as the head of the group?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiki

David S Poepoe · Mar 20, 2012

Premier Taylerov said:
True.
I mean a power with enough clout of, say, Japan.
That kind of imperial power.

It would probably not have the clout of Japan, since it doesn't have either the population nor landmass.

The closest I've come in writing an ATL is basing in on an 1880s suggestion by some guy in Australia that Hawaii be the leader of a pan-polynesian empire. This Federated Empire of Oceania, would be Hawaii, Samoa, Tonga, Nauru, Easter Island and Fiji. Possession of Nauru and other atolls of the Pacific would at least bring in some revenue for the bird crap. Major expansion would be during the Great War when they acquire portions of the former German Pacific colonies.

scholar · Mar 20, 2012

Julius Vogel said:
With a different, slower European exploration of the Pacific, it could be that a Greater Polynesia forms, with Hawaii, Tonga, Samoa and NZ as members. The problem is that I don't see that a unitary empire could form with such widely scattered peoples, despite common origins of their history, culture and language.

You're basically talking about creating a Greater Polynesia that covers almost as much territory as the Eurasian continent with enough landmass to fit inside the state of Texas.

Even with modern technology such an empire would be unfeasible and could not possibly sustain itself if it wished to be anymore than a loose organization of feudal domains with almost no communication, infrastructure, or entirely dependent on the outside world to allow its continued existence.

Julius Vogel · Mar 20, 2012

scholar said:
You're basically talking about creating a Greater Polynesia that covers almost as much territory as the Eurasian continent with enough landmass to fit inside the state of Texas.

Even with modern technology such an empire would be unfeasible and could not possibly sustain itself if it wished to be anymore than a loose organization of feudal domains with almost no communication, infrastructure, or entirely dependent on the outside world to allow its continued existence.

Sure, hence the looseness of the arrangement. More a Holy Roman Empire than say a Ottoman Empire.

It might work, if it could somehow form, hence the need for earlier reliable two way transport. I do concede it is highly unlikely

Laplace's Demon · Mar 20, 2012

David S Poepoe said:
It would probably not have the clout of Japan, since it doesn't have either the population nor landmass.

The closest I've come in writing an ATL is basing in on an 1880s suggestion by some guy in Australia that Hawaii be the leader of a pan-polynesian empire. This Federated Empire of Oceania, would be Hawaii, Samoa, Tonga, Nauru, Easter Island and Fiji. Possession of Nauru and other atolls of the Pacific would at least bring in some revenue for the bird crap. Major expansion would be during the Great War when they acquire portions of the former German Pacific colonies.

King Kalākaua spread Hawaii as far as American Midway and proposed the "Union and Federation of Asiatic Nations and Sovereigns" to Japan in 1881. Maybe his royal visit to Japan sparks the imagination of the ruling Japanese bureaucrat class, or of the current generation of politicians that will eventually themselves retire and become the new crop of unelected bureaucrats running the country?

One of the weird bits of history mentioned in a certain blog, the specific article being here:

http://passingstrangeness.wordpress.com/2009/10/22/the-empire-of-the-calabash/

There is even mention of a kludged together Hawaiian gunboat sent to enforce the King's support of the King of Samoa against the German backed rebel chief.

But more significant than those interesting bits is the overture to Japan, I think. Pan-Asianism could allow Hawaii to rise up as part of a class with Japan and China.

pa_dutch · Mar 21, 2012

Julius Vogel said:
With a different, slower European exploration of the Pacific, it could be that a Greater Polynesia forms, with Hawaii, Tonga, Samoa and NZ as members. The problem is that I don't see that a unitary empire could form with such widely scattered peoples, despite common origins of their history, culture and language.

Maybe some sort of loose confederation with Hawaii (as Hawaiki) as the head of the group?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiki

King Kalakaua did actually attempt to form a political union between Hawaii and Samoa. The ancient kings of Tonga did actually control a loose tributary empire that included Samoa, various other Polynesian islands and island chains, and even parts of Fiji, so if the Hawaiians could get a stronghold on Samoa it shouldn't be too hard to reach a similar territorial extent. I don't see New Zealand being part of it, though, or particularly isolated locales like Easter Island.

Julius Vogel · Mar 21, 2012

pa_dutch said:
King Kalakaua did actually attempt to form a political union between Hawaii and Samoa. The ancient kings of Tonga did actually control a loose tributary empire that included Samoa, various other Polynesian islands and island chains, and even parts of Fiji, so if the Hawaiians could get a stronghold on Samoa it shouldn't be too hard to reach a similar territorial extent. I don't see New Zealand being part of it, though, or particularly isolated locales like Easter Island.

NZ is pretty far away true and it has the potential to dominate the entity, whatever it is. However the NZ Maori are culturally Polynesian and iirc at least, are part of the same sub group as Hawaii, as opposed to Tongan and Samoan, which split off earlier

Corbell Mark IV · Mar 21, 2012

Three possibilities that have occurred to me.

1. If you have an independent Hawaii, what would be the potential leases fees for Pearl Harbor? I'm thinking a lot.

2. If you were to combine OTECs and beamed power you could Hawaii as a large scale energy exporter.

3. Hypersonic transports could make Hawaii an even more attractive tourist destination for the superrich, and the money they bring.

I know these would be more modern developments, but the POD would be before 1900.

Now, you're not talking equal to Japan, but this could help in your wanking attempt.

Winnabago · Mar 21, 2012

Julius Vogel said:
Sure, hence the looseness of the arrangement. More a Holy Roman Empire than say a Ottoman Empire.

It might work, if it could somehow form, hence the need for earlier reliable two way transport. I do concede it is highly unlikely

I figured the Holy Roman Empire was for mutual defense. Polynesia is hardly ever threatened by outside invaders.

scholar · Mar 21, 2012

Corbell Mark IV said:
Three possibilities that have occurred to me.

1. If you have an independent Hawaii, what would be the potential leases fees for Pearl Harbor? I'm thinking a lot.

2. If you were to combine OTECs and beamed power you could Hawaii as a large scale energy exporter.

3. Hypersonic transports could make Hawaii an even more attractive tourist destination for the superrich, and the money they bring.\

Knowing how Europeans dealt with independent nations that were not European, they would probably request funds from Hawaii to pay for the benefit of their presence in the region tot he "small and unimportant state's" economy. And Hawaii would probably do it.

Too Modern.

Too modern.

Basically, the first one is a bit too lofty a dream while the other two are drifting far, far, beyond the scope of history and drifts into the ever speculative future scenarios.

pa_dutch · Mar 21, 2012

Julius Vogel said:
NZ is pretty far away true and it has the potential to dominate the entity, whatever it is. However the NZ Maori are culturally Polynesian and iirc at least, are part of the same sub group as Hawaii, as opposed to Tongan and Samoan, which split off earlier

I'm aware that the Maori are Polynesians, but I still don't think they'd end up in the union. Think Austria and Germany.

B_Munro · Mar 21, 2012

A bit off-topic, but given access to the best-fit pre-industrial agricultural package, how many people do you think New Zealand could support? It is after all a bit bigger than Great Britain, although I'm not quite sure as to how it compares in temperature range and soil quality.

Bruce

Premier Taylerov · Apr 23, 2012

I know this has been dormant for a while, but I'm keen to bump it so that a few more questions can be answered.

If Hawaii was independant in the modern era - say, 2000 - could it be a tax haven like the Caymans or summat? Personally, I'm inclined to think that it's too distant from anywhere to represent something like that.

What are the repercussions of a Japanese Hawaii/ Hawaiian Japan? Major ones, I should think.

Would a modern indendant Hawaii most likely be a thriving democracy or a poor and corruption-riddled dictatorship?

And this:

B_Munro said:
A bit off-topic, but given access to the best-fit pre-industrial agricultural package, how many people do you think New Zealand could support? It is after all a bit bigger than Great Britain, although I'm not quite sure as to how it compares in temperature range and soil quality.

Bruce

David S Poepoe · Apr 23, 2012

Premier Taylerov said:
If Hawaii was independant in the modern era - say, 2000 - could it be a tax haven like the Caymans or summat? Personally, I'm inclined to think that it's too distant from anywhere to represent something like that.

What are the repercussions of a Japanese Hawaii/ Hawaiian Japan? Major ones, I should think.

Would a modern indendant Hawaii most likely be a thriving democracy or a poor and corruption-riddled dictatorship?

And this:

Very interesting question, which I can elaborate on. The possibility of Hawaii being a tax haven, such as the Caymans, was brought up by some of the pro-sovereignty groups as an industry that an independent nation of Hawaii could pursue. Many of the other island nations worldwide make lots of revenue thru the sales of stamps.

The question regarding a modern Hawaii being a democracy or a dictatorship rests with how it develops since at least 1893. Realistically, and historical, Hawaii as the 50th state does have all the hallmarks of a banana republic (or was that second-world nation?) there is one political party that dominates state and county governments and one newspaper (particularly now) that serves as voice for that one party.

Since the days of the Republic, Hawaii has basically been governed either by an oligarchy of businessmen or, since statehood, politicians beholden to the unions. The Kingdom of Hawaii was cosmopolitan and, most likely, more democratic, than the state has ever been.

Julius Vogel · Apr 23, 2012

B_Munro said:
A bit off-topic, but given access to the best-fit pre-industrial agricultural package, how many people do you think New Zealand could support? It is after all a bit bigger than Great Britain, although I'm not quite sure as to how it compares in temperature range and soil quality.

Bruce

Good question. I think this is going to be a hard one for all sorts of reasons. One of which is that a large part of the country is mountinous, another being that assuming the Maori settlers do not have any sort of massive technology boost for sailing, it will not be economic to sustain an agricultural export industry until contact with the rest of the world is reconnected in the modern era.

Currently the NZ agricultural industry is highly mechanised with production centered around exporting bulk dairy, sheep, cattle and deer products, along with fruits, vegetables and the like. There is no way the current level of production could be supported by domestic demand! The current model established itself in the late 19th century, about the same time British settlement occured en mass, due to technology changes (refrigerated shipping etc). So the current agricultural industry has only ever been export orientated. Most of the areas cultivated by the Maori were in the North Island and very few crops were cultivatable below the middle half of the South Island, the latter of which became quite productive only after European crops and methods were installed.

So we've never really see what could be achieved with the Eurasian crop and stock package in NZ, for a subsistance agricultural economy.

Perhaps check out Jared's thread on Australia, as that has been discussed there in far more detail

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=110941