AHC: Have The United States be a football nation.

But someone really famous. Have it happen on live TV.

Still probably wouldn't change that. Other sport have had famous people die during them and it hasn't stopped people from joining them. Now if you have a sudden rash of deaths like lets say 5 within a few weeks that might just do it. Even then though it might no be enough to make people stop playing.
 

Morty Vicar

Banned
A combination of a death during say a Superbowl final, corruption, scandal, a lot more things like teams being bought and moved to another city etc, maybe that can turn enough people off the sport to move to another. You could also fragment the sport between different franchises, as in boxing which has three or four different world heavyweight championships. It won't kill the sport but it will weaken it significantly. Meanwhile give the USA some success in football and people might support it more.
 
I suspect the only realistic way to get the US to be a premier soccer nation is one of the drivers of the current rise in American soccer: immigration. Avoid the increased restriction of immigration to the US, and you'll see plenty of soccer fans from more soccer-friendly nations coming, raising their kids to like soccer and so forth.

The problem with the "kill off all other sports" approach is that in all likelihood, some other, non-soccer sport will take its place. The US is sufficient geographically isolated from Europe that importing sports is difficult (but not impossible, as e.g. Latin American adoption of soccer demonstrates), whereas the US is big enough and inter-connected enough that it's quite easy for someone to come up with a local sport and have it spread.

It's not like having national sports is unique to the US: cricket and rugby are essentially restricted to the former British Empire (they both have some external presence, but in both cases much less than e.g. soccer has in the US), Sumo is essentially a Japanese sport, etc..
 
I suspect the only realistic way to get the US to be a premier soccer nation is one of the drivers of the current rise in American soccer: immigration. Avoid the increased restriction of immigration to the US, and you'll see plenty of soccer fans from more soccer-friendly nations coming, raising their kids to like soccer and so forth.

The problem with the "kill off all other sports" approach is that in all likelihood, some other, non-soccer sport will take its place. The US is sufficient geographically isolated from Europe that importing sports is difficult (but not impossible, as e.g. Latin American adoption of soccer demonstrates), whereas the US is big enough and inter-connected enough that it's quite easy for someone to come up with a local sport and have it spread.

It's not like having national sports is unique to the US: cricket and rugby are essentially restricted to the former British Empire (they both have some external presence, but in both cases much less than e.g. soccer has in the US), Sumo is essentially a Japanese sport, etc..


Rugby is growing globally, albeit slowly, since the introduction of the Rugby World Cup. The sport is still dominated by the Big 3 Southern Hemisphere nations (New Zealand, South Africa & Australia) but it is making ground outside of the traditional areas. Japan, Canada, and the US all have seen growth. Georgia has qualified for the last 3 RWC's, while Russia & Uruguay face off soon for the last spot in next year's Cup. And it's back in the Olympics in it's shortened 7 aside format.

In fact if you're interested, the New Zealand All Blacks are playing the USA Eagles in Chicago this November 1st, at some place called Soldier Field, I think.
 
Soccer, people. We call it soccer.

To make soccer our football you need a PoD before 1900, before American football assumed its modern form, and the change has to occur in the environment of college athletics not as a professional sport. Most American political and business leaders in the early 20th century were graduates of Ivy League or other northeastern universities where they either played or enjoyed watching gridiron football which began as a university sport. These teams were in effect the "major league" of their time and by 1950 college football was played, watched, and enjoyed by millions of people all over the nation, who paid good money to see games. It was only after 1950 that the NFL began to eclipse college football...and even today college football attracts far more fans, especially outside of the major cities. If the NFL went bankrupt tomorrow, American college football would continue and thrive as a big business. It was a big business before the NFL became important and would continue to be a big business afterward. Just ask the average Alabama Crimson Tide or Texas Lonhorn fan (100,000 plus of them every saturday) who pay an average of $200a seat for the cheapest seats in stadiums larger than any NFL venue if the the absence of the NFL would make them suddently become soccer fans even if MLS tried to take the NFL's place.

There are probably several opportunities prior to the evolution of the modern game in the 1920s-30's to have gridiron football replaced by soccer. The most likely would be if Theodore Roosevelt required a much more severe reform of football - one that strengthened kicking and deemphasized running with the ball. But realistically that would result in a game similar to modern rugby, not soccer. Picking up and running with the ball was just too much engrained in the US game by 1900.
 
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Morty Vicar

Banned
I suspect the only realistic way to get the US to be a premier soccer nation is one of the drivers of the current rise in American soccer: immigration.

I second this. Although I'm too lazy for an exhaustive TL, I was seriosuly considering writing a short piece, perhaps in the form of a Wiki article, about an Italian-American football culture in the US, with some aspects of the European Ultras, football hooliganism, but also with American mob ties (with particular teams being associated with certain families and neighborhoods). Here's the link to my thread

Of course added to this Mexico has a significant football culture too, if you have immigrants bring the sport with them to a greater degree you might have an interesting phenomenon of a US team dominated by Hispanic players.
 

Morty Vicar

Banned
Soccer, people. We call it soccer.

X3lyC0m.jpg


:p

To make soccer our football you need a PoD before 1900, before American football assumed its modern form, and the change has to occur in the environment of college athletics not as a professional sport. Most American political and business leaders in the early 20th century were graduates of Ivy League or other northeastern universities where they either played or enjoyed watching gridiron football which began as a university sport. These teams were in effect a "major league" and by 1950 college football was played, watched, and enjoyed by millions of people, who paid good money to see games. It was only after 1950 that the NFL began to eclipse college football...and even today college football attracts far more fans, especially outside of the major cities.

There are probably several opportunities prior to the evolution of the modern game in the 1920s-30's to have gridiron football replaced by soccer. The most likely would be if Theodore Roosevelt required a much more severe reform of football - one that strengthened kicking and deemphasized running with the ball. But realistically that would result in a game similar to modern rugby, not soccer. Picking up and running with the ball was just too much engrained in the US game by 1900.

Football :p was played quite extensively in the US at times, mainly between immigrant factory workers etc. Perhaps if you can get people to see American football as an elitist sport for the rich, and football as a working man's game (similar to the relationship between rugby and football in the UK) - make ticket prices much cheaper for football, make American football more exclusive, for College Alumni and invited guests only, maybe ban black and hispanic players for longer, so they drift towards football.
 
I second this. Although I'm too lazy for an exhaustive TL, I was seriosuly considering writing a short piece, perhaps in the form of a Wiki article, about an Italian-American football culture in the US, with some aspects of the European Ultras, football hooliganism, but also with American mob ties (with particular teams being associated with certain families and neighborhoods). Here's the link to my thread

Of course added to this Mexico has a significant football culture too, if you have immigrants bring the sport with them to a greater degree you might have an interesting phenomenon of a US team dominated by Hispanic players.

Unless this trend began early in the 1900's and interest spread outside of the regions where these immigrants tended to settle (the NE US for Italians and the border states for Mexican immigration) I think the best you'd get is a predominantly regional game, something like ice hockey or lacrosse...very popular where its played but... meh... elsewhere.

This is not to say that a country as big and rich could not field a national soccer team capable winning the olympics or World Cup consisting ot teams largely drawn from the immigrant communities.
 
X3lyC0m.jpg


:p



Football :p was played quite extensively in the US at times, mainly between immigrant factory workers etc. Perhaps if you can get people to see American football as an elitist sport for the rich, and football as a working man's game (similar to the relationship between rugby and football in the UK) - make ticket prices much cheaper for football, make American football more exclusive, for College Alumni and invited guests only, maybe ban black and hispanic players for longer, so they drift towards football.

The problem then is the US already had a popular game for the working man...baseball. This was, after all America's National Pastime. Also, to make a sport sucessful it really doesn't matter how many people play it. Lots of people throw the frisbee. What matters is how many people will spend the money or time going to stadiums and watching it.
 

Eh, many believe that the origin of the word "football" is that it referred to games played on foot, as opposed to games played on horseback. This would explain why so many sports that were codified in the 1800s came to be called "football" in their various countries of origin.

Anyway, there's nothing ASB about soccer becoming a big-time sport in the U.S. You don't need anything drastic like American football dying off. This is a huge country and can support lots of sports. And soccer was a big sport in the 1920s until for business reasons, the league fell apart. Here's a link about it:

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2010/06/the_secret_history_of_american_soccer.html

What happened to soccer in this country is quite weird, a real outlier: the sport went from being very popular to completely off the radar, before starting to become popular again. Change a few things to have the league survive the Depression and it becomes a part of the country's sporting culture all along.

Incidentally, the recent growth of the sport actually has little to do with immigration. Hispanic immigrants often don't support the U.S. team or MLS. What has actually happened is that many Americans in their 30s or younger have caught on to the game. The masses of fans who watched the U.S. teams at the various open-air locations during the World Cup were overwhelmingly white.
 
Footballing country? Easy, just have the NFL break apart in its infancy and the various soccer leagues succeed (such as the AFA/AAFA/ASL). The hard thing to do is trying to make the U.S. into a rugby or cricket nation. ;)
 
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birdboy2000

Banned
America once had a league that lured stars away from major European sides with higher pay and whose star players were competitive on the international stage. The United States placed 3rd in the 1930 World Cup on a pair of 3-0 victories. The American Soccer League was created at a time when hockey was just establishing itself in America, when American Football was played professionally only in the Midwest (and the early NFL was a contemporary), and when professional basketball was struggling to get off the ground - baseball was king, but it had a realistic chance of establishing itself as a second or third American sport, and arguably held that role until the league folded.

It wasn't a truly national league, being restricted to the Northeast. It feuded with America's soccer federation over the National Challenge Cup, teams rebelled, rival leagues were created, and that combined with the depression to bring the league under.

It wasn't the sole league in the country - St. Louis had its own soccer league that didn't outlast the ASL by very long, and there were some other independent teams that won said Challenge Cup. But it's not that hard to craft a scenario where the ASL and the USSF get along, the league survives the depression and rebounds, and the various independent clubs are absorbed into some kind of national high-level soccer league system. At this point in history, American soccer was competitive, on the right track, and could have stayed that way if its leagues had fared better - instead, it became an amateur sport more or less until 1990.

(Yes, including the NASL era - a top league, but one with very few American players.)
 
Eh, many believe that the origin of the word "football" is that it referred to games played on foot, as opposed to games played on horseback. This would explain why so many sports that were codified in the 1800s came to be called "football" in their various countries of origin.

Anyway, there's nothing ASB about soccer becoming a big-time sport in the U.S. You don't need anything drastic like American football dying off. This is a huge country and can support lots of sports. And soccer was a big sport in the 1920s until for business reasons, the league fell apart. Here's a link about it:

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2010/06/the_secret_history_of_american_soccer.html

What happened to soccer in this country is quite weird, a real outlier: the sport went from being very popular to completely off the radar, before starting to become popular again. Change a few things to have the league survive the Depression and it becomes a part of the country's sporting culture all along.

Incidentally, the recent growth of the sport actually has little to do with immigration. Hispanic immigrants often don't support the U.S. team or MLS. What has actually happened is that many Americans in their 30s or younger have caught on to the game. The masses of fans who watched the U.S. teams at the various open-air locations during the World Cup were overwhelmingly white.

Most codes of football are English in origin, in fact their ancestor sport is still played there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrovetide_football

Oddly a similar game (Lelo Burti) exists in Georgia, a nation that is rapidly developing as a rugby nation. 2015 will be their 4th consecutive World Cup appearance.
 
Trolley dodgers, factory workers and sports in pre-RATV America

I think the POD would need to be in the late 19th century. The baseball versus cricket rivalry of the 19th century affords some perspective on the problem.

The "baseball descended from cricket" idea, though once published widely and still generally believed, is not accurate. (FWIW I enjoy watching both sports). There was some cross-fertilization; baseball's shortstop, for instance, originally played closer to the plate than other infielders during the mid-19th century (a dead ball era), bearing an uncanny resemblance to the short leg position in cricket. Shortstops moved out to be farther from the plate than other infielders as the ball was modified. They become insurance against blooper hits pulled into play by the predominantly right handed batter and relay throwers after deep outfield hits.

Nonetheless, historians now believe baseball and cricket were siblings that evolved from rounders and related games like stool ball. Rounders survived more completely in baseball and stool ball more completely in cricket. Both games competed for American fans throughout the 19th century, as cricket's originally dominant position declined with inverse proportion to baseball's ascendancy. Amateur athletic clubs often played both but it rapidly became apparent that the urban middle class' loyal attendance at contests would be required for professional clubs to develop a permanent and profitable existence.

It seems that the relatively faster same day *finish* of baseball won out over cricket, where matches took several days. Amateur athletic club fans were drawn from the leisure class, but the masses of the public whose paying attendance was needed to sustain a club didn't have the time to sit through a match. Cricket's professional clubs, then, were confronting an immovable economic wall. Pre-radio, let alone television, working Americans didn't care to join a game during its last third of play, or attend an earlier third and wait for days to learn from the newpaper what happened.

Baseball could therefore deliver crowds significantly larger than cricket. By example, the same driving factor explains why the quiet parlor clavichord was re-engineered into the harpsichord for a chamber concert and then a piano when the middle class rose, willing to flood concert halls (boosting the per performance take home income for artists and concert producers).

Likewise, baseball was more easily approximated than cricket by kids playing stickball in the alleys of urban America. (Today, the ready approximation of playing dynamics that by be achieved simply by hanging a hoop anywhere is one reason so many in the inner city grow up loving basketball over baseball -- and the better athletes among them shoot for the NBA rather than MLB).

Soccer shares the creation and maintenance of a beautiful green space and a game that can be finished in an afternoon. It has both the green space psychological setting and economic scale of baseball. Soccer likewise had the "stickball" quality of being a game whose dynamics could be reproduced in alleyways with an adjustment of scale.

Although the tempos are dramatically different, soccer's overall dynamics are otherwise similar to basketball. Basketball was invented in the 1890s as a form of indoor soccer (a soccer ball was used originally, in fact), specifically to give amateur athletes an indoor game during the winter. It had certainly not achieved any popularity remotely like that it came to enjoy later.

And while it usually lacks the life-changing, bone-crushing series of combat-style injuries served up in each game of American football, fans can satisfy that level of bloodlust in the stands and other off-field venues in ways more direct and presumable more satisfying for that reason. During the first decade of the 20th century, football was just catching on as a university (not a pro) sport, highly controversial due to injuries. (Teddy Roosevelt loved it precisely because it approximated war right down to leaving lifelong invalids among the dozen or so deaths during those years. His frustration over being unable to manufacture a war for that generation of university lads, when he believed every generation needed one, was partly put to rest when he attended his first football game, after which it became his chief ambition to get America involved in European wars whenever possible.)


So why didn't it catch on?

Soccer's relative lack of scoring has been blamed for why Americans have never taken to it as a past-time. Yet cricket is actually a more frenetic play than baseball as batsmen run feverishly back and forth over the pitch, and the scoring piles into hundreds of runs. Americans still went with baseball.

Arguably, the problem may well be the fact that in many soccer matches a 1-0 score seems insurmountable absent from preternatural endeavors by the team staring up that steep slope.

Certainly fundamental changes to the pitcher's mound and the strike zone after 1968's "year of the pitcher" suggests MLB has long recognized it cannot fall into that whoever-chokes-out-one-run wins' net. In the 1990s, MLB did a wink-and-nod to massive PED abuse so the homers would bring the game back after the massive disaffection created by the 1994 strike. (Once the goal was met, MLB mandarins were "shocked -- shocked!" that reports of PED skittle parties were true, although (like Captain Renault) they nonetheless collected their winnings.

Could 19th century / early 20th century changes have brought soccer into vogue in America? America's "second sport" slot was still undecided. I think so, but I'm not even remotely well-versed in what the rules are. (American, you see?)

I do know that rules for soccer / association football were being carefully redrawn throught the mid- to late-19th century, beginning with changes made by Cambridge. What rule changes then, cognizant of the fandom factors such as those discussed above, might have made soccer a more up tempo game while retaining its general look, feel and same afternoon resolution of games?
 
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"Soccer" is actually an English word, not American

I don't know how to make soccer/football be the top sport in the USA, although a good number of the previous suggestions seem plausible, but since I've seen the beginnings of this endless argument start to rear its head here I thought it best to throw this out here. I'm sure some of you know this but "Soccer" is actually an English word in origin, not American.

http://m.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/06/why-we-call-soccer-soccer/372771/


"The rugby football game was shortened to 'rugger,'" while "the association football game was, plausibly, shortened to 'soccer.'"

Both sports fragmented yet again as they spread around the world. The colloquialism "soccer" caught on in the United States in the first decade of the twentieth century, in part to distinguish the game from American football, a hybrid of Association Football and Rugby Football.

And one more just to cover my bases

http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~pstone/why.html
 
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Would it be possible as well for association football to pick up on a college level and perhaps have a college level leagues between US schools? Imagine division 1 universities pitting each other over football?
 
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