AHC: bigger Russian population base in Siberia

[Valena]

Not basin. Border on Amur instead of buffer zone. Left bank IS possible, but nothing more than this. And it was possible to give up left bank, just like China gave up Baikal Lake area in 1670ies - prestige holdings.
But that will tie hands of Russia in dealing with steppe people even more than OTL Nerchinsk and Kyakhta treaties. As Chinese bank will ALWAYS have better garrisons and fortresses (ALWAYS = during the entirety of 18th century).

 

[MonAngel]

Not basin. Border on Amur instead of buffer zone. Left bank IS possible, but nothing more than this. And it was possible to give up left bank, just like China gave up Baikal Lake area in 1670ies - prestige holdings.
But that will tie hands of Russia in dealing with steppe people even more than OTL Nerchinsk and Kyakhta treaties. As Chinese bank will ALWAYS have better garrisons and fortresses (ALWAYS = during the entirety of 18th century).

Baikal Lake area was conquered by Russia before Khalkha Mongols submitted to Qing. So Biakla Lake area never was Qing territory. Qing just not tried to contest area as
- It would weaken Mongols.
- Useless waste land.

On the other hand Amur river basin was historically considered as Jurchen land (or Manchu's). Many Tungusic tribes inhabited Amur basin were related to Jurchen tribes (shared same ancestors). So Baikal and Amur basin are whole different things.

 

[Valena]

As I've said there's a world of difference between saner border (left bank) and control over basin. I always that RIGHT bank was ancestral land while left one can be given to white barbarians on condition of strict non-interference in Mongolian matters (which really mattered more in realpolitic terms to China).
Long-term steppe consequences, however, are interesting.

 

[MonAngel]

As I've said there's a world of difference between saner border (left bank) and control over basin. I always that RIGHT bank was ancestral land while left one can be given to white barbarians on condition of strict non-interference in Mongolian matters (which really mattered more in realpolitic terms to China).
Long-term steppe consequences, however, are interesting.

Both banks of Amur river as far as Zeya river was claimed by Manchus even before they invaded China. So expanding to right bank of Amur means Russians entering Manchu border. So only way is Russians defeating Manchu in the region. But as I stated Russians can't defeat Manchus, as Qing was superior in the region relative to Russians.

By Nerchinsk Treaty, Qing seceded lands which was practically controlled by Russians before Qing annexed Khalkha Mongols.

 

[Valena]

Yes, I'm aware of logistic superiority (even with non-return in 1682, Chinese have burnt the infrastructure here by 1685). Though Albazin managed to hold unusually long for such a crappy fortress. Better garrison + playing on Oirat (loyal allies of Russians back then) issue can do the trick, or at least that's what I think.
And the whole thing might be presented as a victory to China, there was a protocol issue. Russians recognized themselves as rightful successors of Byzantine emperors in coronation ceremonies since 1666 (though Peter I was the first one to style himself Emperor properly), and the ambassador of Emperor shall not kow-tow to another Emperor. That was regarded as big deal diplomatically in Kyakhta Treaty IIRC. Russians recognizing themselves as tributary state and agreeing to kow-tow before Chinese Emperor seems a part of this "better" agreement.

 

[Valena]

http://fai.org.ru/forum/index.php/topic/34112-амурская-война-1680-1689/
Discussed the issue on Russian forum for Duchess of Cumberland and the idea of borrowing the plot point for Apollinis and Dianae. In fact it turned out that mass exile of the Old Believers to the East in the Duchess of Cumberland TL was almost the only non-ASB chance of holding on the left bank of Amur.

 

[katchen]

As I've said there's a world of difference between saner border (left bank) and control over basin. I always that RIGHT bank was ancestral land while left one can be given to white barbarians on condition of strict non-interference in Mongolian matters (which really mattered more in realpolitic terms to China).
Long-term steppe consequences, however, are interesting.

An old professor of mine told me that when the Russians and Chinese were negotiating over the border of Siberia and Qing, the Qing negotiators at one point suggested that the border be the eastward flowing portion of the LENA River, not the Amur. The Stanovoi crest was agreed upon as a compromise--much to the dismay of the Yakuts, who wanted Qing protection from the Russians.

 

[katchen]

Remember that Dzungaria ACTIVELY sought Russian aid (and Russians were forbidden to give this aid under Nerchinsk Treaty). Playing the card better = non-return of the troops in 1682 (with little long-lasting effect) and better illusion of alliance. Oirats were viewed as Russian natural ally in the region. So if they were not forced to march against us after OTL Nerchinsk treaty, I don't think ATL (especially regarding the region Oirats were NOT interested in) will be different. It's not like the details of the treaty are going to be leaked to them.

If the Oirats are natural allies of the Russians is there some place in Siberia, or even west of the Urals that Russia would be comfortable settling ALL of them, not just a remnant, so that the Russians can basically enroll the Oirats as a sort of registered cossacks, but well out of the Qing's way? If no other place, perhaps on the Arctic steppe east of the Yakut's lands? Or in the Komi forests? Or right on the Pontic Steppe where they can buffer and hopefully drive out the Ottomans?

 

[EternalCynic]

The long dividing range was a compromise suggested by the Qing negotiators. It would have neatly denied Russia any Pacific coast and made Russian control east of the Yenisey rather tenuous.

 

[katchen]

The long dividing range was a compromise suggested by the Qing negotiators. It would have neatly denied Russia any Pacific coast and made Russian control east of the Yenisey rather tenuous.

Could or would the Qing really have held everything along the Pacific to the Bering Strait?

 

[Valena]

If the Oirats are natural allies of the Russians is there some place in Siberia, or even west of the Urals that Russia would be comfortable settling ALL of them, not just a remnant, so that the Russians can basically enroll the Oirats as a sort of registered cossacks, but well out of the Qing's way? If no other place, perhaps on the Arctic steppe east of the Yakut's lands? Or in the Komi forests? Or right on the Pontic Steppe where they can buffer and hopefully drive out the Ottomans?

Oirats/Kalmyks in the Pontic steppes are so cool that's awesome.

 

[Thoresby]

Could or would the Qing really have held everything along the Pacific to the Bering Strait?

No they couldn't. Not least because the northern two thirds of that is pretty much uninhabitable.

 

[katchen]

No they couldn't. Not least because the northern two thirds of that is pretty much uninhabitable.

I didn't think so. The Q'ing didn't even try to hold the mouth of the Amur River or Sakhalin IOTL.