For the Catholics, there is also here however; the french-canadian lands.
I means, there was a good immigration to south america in the 19th century, germans, italians, also japaneses later...
ACH: Largest Possible Mexico
- Thread starter Zoidberg12
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For the Catholics, there is also here however; the french-canadian lands.
I means, there was a good immigration to south america in the 19th century, germans, italians, also japaneses later...
Tumultuous Mexico is tumultuous. People fleeing from persecution don't want to go to a seemingly hostile and foreign place. Mexico didn't cotton well to Anglos. Example being Texas.
Yeah, but USA had a good history of anti-papism (a reason why my ancestors prefered the British Crown). A less known bit of history was by example anti-ITALIANS riots...
Is it better to be in a country where the people yelling at you are white and speak your language or are Hispanic and don't, but share the same religion?
Depends on the person.
You understimate the importance of religion in the deal, the social aspect of it...
In an USA growing even more hostile to 'papists', they could pack away and leave.. It happened at times.
Between whiteys who HATE your religion and culture, and a mixed nation at least tolerant and VERY of YOUR religion... I'd take the later instead of oppression, hate and all.
Again, the USA was a nation whon acted free, but the freedom was for the WASPs. And cathos did also get a bad deal - a lesser known target of at least second KKK was cathos (and jews too).
You should see how much italians immigrated to Brazil - even MOAR mixed that Mexico was ever perhaps - and the white yeah but latino catho argentina, in 19th century.
Of course, there is always my then called Lower Canada, the very catho future Québec... But to get some important positions, you have to swear to the King, and NOT be a catho (in theory).
I still can't imagine a majority of white immigrants choosing Mexico over America, if given those choices. America had bad times, but Mexico was an actual battleground.
I added more BTW.
Mind you, I means ATL USA. And USA had a civil war, too, in mid 19th century. As well, Mexico in ATL could have a better deal, more stable...making it a well acceptable another path...
Yeah, but Mexico had intermittent militia violence between different factions for almost every decade of its existence until the 1930's, and then it became an autocracy, and now it has cartels and an extensive criminal underworld hostile to just about everyone.
Addressing Argentina and Brazil, their governments have almost always been more open to European immigration then Central America and Mexico. Personally, I'd go to Costa Rica above all other places south of the Rio Grande.
Heck, as I said, ATL Mexico could have perhaps easily made more stable and quieter, and for somes liek Poles, that or Brother Russia or Gringolandia...
That can be changed, too.
Nietzsche
Banned
What does it say about Mexico that people preferred to stay in Carlist War Spain than go there?
Wolfpaw
Banned
That's certainly one way around it
Instead of just saying "butterflies," you might want to post something more substantive. I hear a lot of talk of "butterflies" and nobody actually presenting any scenarios other than, "Catholics would go to a Catholic country because Catholicism."Seriously, why would the Irish go to Mexico in larger numbers than America? Shared faith does not mean cultural or linguistic connections, and those two trump sectarian similarity. Also recall that while anti-Catholicism was the norm in the US, the State rarely (if ever) shut down Churches because "ew, Papists," and the worst things got were urban riots.
Mexico also has a troubled history between its Church and secularists trying to curb the medieval excesses of the clergy. How to butterfly that inevitable confrontation? Or the fact that Mexico's quality of life is far less than that of the United States. Unskilled white workers are also going to prove troublesome to Mexico's racial caste system.
Many of the German Catholic immigrants were farmers; where are they to go but the already-populated zones of Mexico? And don't say Texas, because the Germans who settled there OTL preferred the Americans.
A good scenario you say?That's certainly one way around it
Seriously, why would the Irish go to Mexico in larger numbers than America? Shared faith does not mean cultural or linguistic connections, and those two trump sectarian similarity. Also recall that while anti-Catholicism was the norm in the US, the State rarely (if ever) shut down Churches because "ew, Papists," and the worst things got were urban riots.
Mexico also has a troubled history between its Church and secularists trying to curb the medieval excesses of the clergy. How to butterfly that inevitable confrontation? Or the fact that Mexico's quality of life is far less than that of the United States. Unskilled white workers are also going to prove troublesome to Mexico's racial caste system.
Many of the German Catholic immigrants were farmers; where are they to go but the already-populated zones of Mexico? And don't say Texas, because the Germans who settled there OTL preferred the Americans.
For starters, the politics in early Mexico were heavily polarized between radical liberals and radical conservatives. Having a stronger moderate faction on both liberals and conservatives would do wonders, to begin with. Less likely to start coups just because the President wanted to shut down the parochial school. Actually having Mexico as a monarchy could do a good job out of it, considering that it was the only thing all of the factions could agree on in its early days (it was until the 1824 constitution that the politics in Mexico did got ugly).
Another POD would be Nativism in the United States becoming strong enough to enact proper state action against all Catholics, citing them as being Papist conspirators and such. Though, I'm not that well-versed in American history, so anyone that could add up to this, please do so.
As for why people didn't settle in Mexico, there's one thing that can be said about it: Mexico's weather patterns are horrible. If it's not a humid jungle, it's a scorching desert. There are exceptions, such as Monterrey, but these are quite rare to find.
Then, there's the fact that (instability or not, this was a phenomena limited to the central areas for most of the time, where most of the liberal/conservative strongholds were; the northern parts of the country were quite peaceful) there was not much of road infrastructure outside of roads leading into or out of Mexico City. So, if you wanted, for example, to head to California from Europe, you had to go to Veracruz, then to Mexico City, then to Acapulco, and then go on a voyage to San Francisco. That is not the definition of a very pleasant trip.
Let's say that something like the Potato Famine happens in ATL (not unlikely I guess), and the British handle it as badly as OTL. At the same time, some sort of anti-Catholic shenanigans take place in the US. This convinces a lot of Irishmen that the Americans, despite their talk about liberty, are just Englishmen with a fresh coat of paint. Now, this doesn't mean that they're going to go to Mexico, but it's a start. Perhaps the anti-Catholic shenanigans are taking place in a recently conquered Canada? That could add the French-Canadians to Mexico as well, and create the groundwork for a more American style melting pot, especially in their northern territories. Add a gold rush, a more stable Mexico (I know far too little about Mexico to deal with that) and a nascent pan-ethnic Mexican identity, and perhaps European Catholics are more likely to go there? The Mediterranean climate of California should be appealing to Southern Europeans who are far from home.
Perhaps include Vault boy's idea of a monarch, who gets it in his head to develop the northern territories as a stable counterweight to a more unruly south. A popular monarch supported by/supporting a moderate faction could create the stability Mexico needs, and make the whole place seem more welcoming to immigrants. Perhaps more unrest in the rest of Latin America could also see people deciding to go for the frontier of Mexico, building up infrastructure that makes it more attractive to later European immigration.
This won't turn Mexico into a Spanish-Catholic US, but it should help them keep control of more of their northern territories.