A surviving house Hohenstaufen

Esopo

Banned
Esopo, you there? You seem to have some particular knowledge in the area of medieval Italy.

Hey :D

I dont think that federico living 20 years more could have changed much things. His decline had begun already when he died. It had actually began even before the defeat of Parma. Imperial forces had endured defeats both Milan and in Reggio. The excommunication was making the coalition against him stronger, and many cities which seemed to be loyal to the empire had began to change side.

basically federico II was defeated by the north italian commons strenght. During that century (unlike at the times of emperor Otto, who had actually managed to defeat the not-yet-developed commons), northern italy was actually the richest area of europe, able to arm enough forces to defend its popolous cities and to submit it was an incredible hard task. Federico exstinguished the great strenght of the south in his assaults against the north. That war wasnt impossible to be won, but it was very difficult. Imho, his greatest mistake was in its policies about the church. He had, more than once, the chance to extend his influence on the church. Even if he is known as the emperor who fought the pope, he actually respected the church and was very reluctant to fight against it. He could have secured Umbria and Marche while keeping Rome under his influence (both in 1237 -when the Pope had actually lost his control on Rome because of a riot, and was restored on the throne by federico himself- and in 1241, when the emperor was about to enter rome when Gregorio died, he could have managed to control the papacy, even if maybe not for so long), hence building a central italian state controlled by an italian king. Its not hard to imagine that such a kingdom (which wouldnt have extinguished its forces in a long war in the north) could be able to gradually expand in northern italy in the following centuries, like the french monarchy did. Instead he tried to fight a war which was far from his heartland, leaving his most dangerous foe, the pope, free to act as the center and fule of the coalition against him. When finally Innocenzo left for Lyon, he had already built a coalition both in germany and italy against Federico, and it was too late...

Anyway he is a very fascinating carachter for a TL. An italian nation ruled by the Ostafi dinasty (hohenstaufen :D), and a pope forced to leave for the north or for france would be the powerhouse of europe, and it could see a national church centuries before northern europe.
 
Many thanks, Esopo! Food for thought...

And what of his surviving sons? A Conrad who outlived his father more than 4 years? Or a Manfred who held off the Angevins? Or grandson Conradin doing same?
Thoughts on other players that could potentially help the Ostafi?;)
If I pull together a TL, I must seriously consider what versions of the names to use. I'm inclined to use "Federico", "Guelfo" and "Ghibellino", etc. if I keep the focus in the South. For the flavor....:D
 

Esopo

Banned
Many thanks, Esopo! Food for thought...

And what of his surviving sons? A Conrad who outlived his father more than 4 years? Or a Manfred who held off the Angevins? Or grandson Conradin doing same?
Thoughts on other players that could potentially help the Ostafi?;)
If I pull together a TL, I must seriously consider what versions of the names to use. I'm inclined to use "Federico", "Guelfo" and "Ghibellino", etc. if I keep the focus in the South. For the flavor....:D

Conrad hadnt many chances imho. Manfredi did, instead. To avoid the anjou victory and the end of the hohenstaufen rule in sicily is simple. Maybe the sicilian fleet manages to find and destroy the angioin one in 1265, or Charles of Anjou dies or is never born, and maybe the crusade against the hohenstaufen wont happen at all. At the time of the battle of Benevento, though, id say that Manfredi was too weak to resist even if he won a battle. Well maybe if he managed to win a greeeeeat victory killing charles... who knows.
And yes italian names are better :D
 
Conrad hadnt many chances imho. Manfredi did, instead. To avoid the anjou victory and the end of the hohenstaufen rule in sicily is simple. Maybe the sicilian fleet manages to find and destroy the angioin one in 1265, or Charles of Anjou dies or is never born, and maybe the crusade against the hohenstaufen wont happen at all. At the time of the battle of Benevento, though, id say that Manfredi was too weak to resist even if he won a battle. Well maybe if he managed to win a greeeeeat victory killing charles... who knows.
And yes italian names are better :D

Manfredi! Va bene!:D

I find it interesting that the Pope and anti-Hohenstaufen forces asked so many people from different noble houses of Europe to dethrone them. Including English nobility. Who all declined. But it was Charles who answered the call.
 

Esopo

Banned
Manfredi! Va bene!:D

I find it interesting that the Pope and anti-Hohenstaufen forces asked so many people from different noble houses of Europe to dethrone them. Including English nobility. Who all declined. But it was Charles who answered the call.

Eh, in order to join a crusade against the Svevi you have to consider 2 things.
1) do i need to join a crusade? charles needed it, because he was a noble whitout a land.

2) do i have the means to fight it? provence was near to italy and charles had a fleet to reach italy, and the control of the "gates" of the alps to send his troops there. Also, he was supported by the kingdom of france. Many other nobles would have had much more difficulty...
 
Good points.
I'm going to reread some material I have on the Hohenstaufens as well as ponder what has been mentioned on the thread.
If you guys have any more insights, feel free to mention them on this thread or PM me.
 
Conrad hadnt many chances imho. Manfredi did, instead. To avoid the anjou victory and the end of the hohenstaufen rule in sicily is simple. Maybe the sicilian fleet manages to find and destroy the angioin one in 1265, or Charles of Anjou dies or is never born, and maybe the crusade against the hohenstaufen wont happen at all. At the time of the battle of Benevento, though, id say that Manfredi was too weak to resist even if he won a battle. Well maybe if he managed to win a greeeeeat victory killing charles... who knows.
And yes italian names are better :D

I agree that Conrad/Conradin at the OTL point didn't have many chances, however if he instead focuses on Swabia and his position in the HRE, then that could have changed in the future.

After all for him Manfred and Charles are both usurpers.
 
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Esopo

Banned
I agree that Conrad/Conradin at the OTL point didn't have many chances, however if he instead focuses on Swabia and his position in the HRE, then that could have changed in the future.

After all for him Manfred and Charles are both usurpers.

Well, i suppose thats true. I dont really know enough about the situation in germany...
Another thing which makes this WI so cool is that mongols were still around at that time. Who knows what could have happened if they decided to raid germany (or italy)...
 
Well, i suppose thats true. I dont really know enough about the situation in germany...
Another thing which makes this WI so cool is that mongols were still around at that time. Who knows what could have happened if they decided to raid germany (or italy)...

The Mongols did actually reach the Adriatic (Dalmatian coast) and Mongols scouts apparently penetrated into Austria and Bohemia. Yes, there's a lot of potential for mischief here...;)

Henry Otto I'll have to look into.
 
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