A son for Phillip II of Taranto

The Professor · Oct 27, 2018

The rivalries and families of the cadet Sicily-Anjous appear rife for POD potential what with marriages between the Calabrian branch (the daughters Joanna and Maria of King Robert of Jerusalem & Neapolitan Sicily), the Taranto branch (sons Louis, Robert, and Phillip, of Phillip I Prince of Taranto and Latin Roman Emperor), and the Durazzo branch (sons Charles, Louis, Robert, and Stephen, of John Duke of Durazzo [1]). Not forgetting the next branch over of the Hungarian Sicily-Anjous.

However let's assume that the only difference we're making (before butterflies and knockons) is that LRE Phillip II and Maria of Calabria successfully produce a surviving son in the 1360s.
How does that affect things?
Do the Durazzos concentrate solely on the Hungarian rather than the Neapolitan throne?
What of the papal schism?
Who does Queen Joanna favour as heir?
Etc etc

[1] he became Duke of Durazzo aka Lord of Kingdom of Albania by swapping Achaea for it with his nephew Robert of Taranto

(Edit: grammar fixes)

The Professor · Oct 28, 2018

Any ideas?
Would Joanna be inclined to accept the young (Phillip III?) as heir presumptive?
Would she still favour Louis of Anjou?
How does Louis of Hungary react?

JonasResende · Oct 28, 2018

In lieu of an heir of her own body, I can't Giovanna favouring someone else over her nephew. She might not like it, but, since she herself is proof that female succession in Naples is permissable, her heiress presumptive is her sister, and when Marie goes, the claim passes to Marie's son. Probably baby Philippe gets betrothed to one of Giovanna's daughter with the aim of shoring up his claim/kiss and make up after the latest round of infighting.

The Hungarians are probably gonna get involved with the murder/death of Prince Andras in Naples anyway. But how much they get involved (or are allowed to get away with) remains to be seen.

I have no idea if the Durazzos will get involved in Hungary - maybe if Philippe marries one of Lajos' daughters (assuming one/more of them isn't born a boy) - but until the duke of Slavonia (and his son) dies, they're probably not looking north too much

The Professor · Oct 29, 2018

JonasResende said:
In lieu of an heir of her own body, I can't Giovanna favouring someone else over her nephew. She might not like it, but, since she herself is proof that female succession in Naples is permissable, her heiress presumptive is her sister, and when Marie goes, the claim passes to Marie's son. Probably baby Philippe gets betrothed to one of Giovanna's daughter with the aim of shoring up his claim/kiss and make up after the latest round of infighting.

Interesting. How soon would she accept him? Perhaps after his father dies and he inherits Taranto and the Latin Empire?
A daughter of Joanna is unlikely as spouse since they all died in the 50s. Who else would she push for?
I assume also the 68 marriage of Maria's daughter to a Durazzo happens too.

JonasResende said:
The Hungarians are probably gonna get involved with the murder/death of Prince Andras in Naples anyway. But how much they get involved (or are allowed to get away with) remains to be seen.

I'm assuming that goes as OTL considering a 60s POD is later.

JonasResende said:
I have no idea if the Durazzos will get involved in Hungary - maybe if Philippe marries one of Lajos' daughters (assuming one/more of them isn't born a boy) - but until the duke of Slavonia (and his son) dies, they're probably not looking north too much

Phillip married Elizabeth after Maria died OTL so could possibly still marry her TTL.

kasumigenx · Oct 29, 2018

Maria of Sicily is a possible bride.

The Professor · Oct 30, 2018

kasumigenx said:
Maria of Sicily is a possible bride.

Assuming you mean the future Queen of Insular Sicily that's unlikely as she's under Aragonese control.

kasumigenx · Oct 30, 2018

The Professor said:
Assuming you mean the future Queen of Insular Sicily that's unlikely as she's under Aragonese control.

They can do it since IOTL she is betrothed to Visconti.

JonasResende · Oct 30, 2018

@The Professor:
I think Giovanna would probably de jure accept Junior as her heir once she hits menopause or realizes that she's unlikely to have no more kids of her own (or something like that). Of course, de facto, the boy might be seen as a logical heir (à la Elizabeth to Mary Tudor), if not the favoured one (Giovanna might not be mad about the boy (again Mary and Elizabeth) and might consider other options (like the Hungarian branch à la Mary did Margaret Douglas) long before Giovanna officially recognizes him as such - indeed, if she ever does (depends whether you want a reasonably peaceful succession or not, I guess).

The Professor · Oct 30, 2018

kasumigenx said:
They can do it since IOTL she is betrothed to Visconti.

Whereupon she was kidnapped and married to the heir of Aragon. Why would this change?

JonasResende said:
@The Professor:
I think Giovanna would probably de jure accept Junior as her heir once she hits menopause or realizes that she's unlikely to have no more kids of her own (or something like that). Of course, de facto, the boy might be seen as a logical heir (à la Elizabeth to Mary Tudor), if not the favoured one (Giovanna might not be mad about the boy (again Mary and Elizabeth) and might consider other options (like the Hungarian branch à la Mary did Margaret Douglas) long before Giovanna officially recognizes him as such - indeed, if she ever does (depends whether you want a reasonably peaceful succession or not, I guess).

Seems plausible to me. Some of it is like Elizabeth and James too.

The Professor · Nov 2, 2018

Any more ideas before I accede this as not interesting folks?

JonasResende · Nov 2, 2018

The Professor said:
Any more ideas before I accede this as not interesting folks?

I'd say it can have a huge impact in the long term. It means that if Lajos of Hungary has no son, OTL Ladislas the Posthumous can marry one of the daughters W/O having to worry about an awkward PU between Hungary and Naples.

Likewise, if Philippe has male heir(s) - and keeps the Taranto line going (IDK who'd be a good bride for him, though - Valentina Visconti perhaps?) - then it keeps the junior line (and probably the son of Jean II's Angevin line) away from the Neapolitan/Hungarian throne and could drastically change things in France during the 100YW.

The Professor · Nov 2, 2018

JonasResende said:
I'd say it can have a huge impact in the long term. It means that if Lajos of Hungary has no son, OTL Ladislas the Posthumous can marry one of the daughters W/O having to worry about an awkward PU between Hungary and Naples.

I'd say his father Charles might even be recognised as heir to Hungary and live get it.

JonasResende said:
Likewise, if Philippe has male heir(s) - and keeps the Taranto line going (IDK who'd be a good bride for him, though - Valentina Visconti perhaps?) - then it keeps the junior line (and probably the son of Jean II's Angevin line) away from the Neapolitan/Hungarian throne and could drastically change things in France during the 100YW.

Could we see him wed to a younger daughter of Hungary? Otl Phillip II married Elizabeth of Slavonia as his second when Maria died without giving him an heir.
Edit: and which junior line do you mean?

The Professor · Nov 3, 2018

Ideas: Imperial Banner and State Flag of the Neapolitan (Roman) Empire

The second needs some playing around with but mostly works.

Emperor Constantine · Nov 3, 2018

If Johanna's sister Maria had a surviving son then there's no question of her "favoring" anyone else. The succession would clearly go to her closest male relative, her nephew. The shenanigans around the Neapolitan succession resulted from the absence of any close male relative (of the branches of the House of Anjou, only the House of Durazzo had a surviving male heir, the future Charles III, the rest only had daughters), the fact that Johanna's elder nieces failed to have children, the Queen siding with Clement VII in the Western Schism and finally the decades long argument with the Hungarians over the crown. Here Johanna has an indisputable heir in her nephew Emperor Philip IV. BTW I would say it's easiest to have one of Maria and Philip's three sons survive infancy rather than invent a pregnancy in the late 1360s.

@The Professor, Johanna only favored Louis of Anjou after she sided with Clement VII and needed a powerful protector in the form of France. In truth I'm not sure Johanna favored anyone from her family for the throne. I think her niece the Duchess of Durazzo was the official heiress, but she was childless so no real help there. I think Charles of Durazzo was a compromise candidate but was never really liked by the Queen.

Now as to Hungary, harder to say. Charles of Durazzo would have to be single when Louis I eventually has his daughters and even then the Hungarian King might favor a more powerful candidate if the Neapolitan succession is stable. If that happens, we might see a conflict between Charles and the Hungarian regency like OTL, which could get Neapolitan support to keep the Hungarians unstable. You know, this would be a very interesting TL and I'm not even going into potential events in the Balkans and Greece yet!

JonasResende · Nov 4, 2018

The Professor said:
Edit: and which junior line do you mean?

Basically the Angevins looked like this:
Senior most line (descended from eldest son of Charles II) ruled in Hungary
Neapolitan line descended from Charles II's 3e son (Roberto - Giovanna's grandpa).
Taranto line stemmed from Charles II's 4e son (Philippe- Philippe III's grandpa)
Durazzo line descended from Charles II's 9e son (Jean- Carlo, duke of Durazzo's dad).
Ergo, Durazzo is the junior most line

The Professor · Nov 4, 2018

JonasResende said:
Basically the Angevins looked like this:
Senior most line (descended from eldest son of Charles II) ruled in Hungary
Neapolitan line descended from Charles II's 3e son (Roberto - Giovanna's grandpa).
Taranto line stemmed from Charles II's 4e son (Philippe- Philippe III's grandpa)
Durazzo line descended from Charles II's 9e son (Jean- Carlo, duke of Durazzo's dad).
Ergo, Durazzo is the junior most line

I thought you meant that at first then I thought maybe you meant the Louis and Rene Anjou line!

The Professor · Nov 11, 2018

Arms ideas:

JonasResende · Nov 11, 2018

@The Professor I know very little about how heraldry works, but didn't it also distinguish between masculine and feminine sides of the coa? So, a claim through the male line (Naples) took precedence over a claim through female lines (ERE, Hungary Jerusalem etc). Or am I getting it mixed up?

The Professor · Nov 11, 2018

JonasResende said:
@The Professor I know very little about how heraldry works, but didn't it also distinguish between masculine and feminine sides of the coa? So, a claim through the male line (Naples) took precedence over a claim through female lines (ERE, Hungary Jerusalem etc). Or am I getting it mixed up?

You're not entirely wrong though those rules were stronger in English tradition than French, which I assume Naples used. And later in period too.
You can probably tell I've swapped the LRE and Taranto halves over in the first arms. That was entirely to avoid a cadet Capet over another cadet Capet situation.
We're also in the period where arms for family become a bit more arms for realm too.