A More Roman World

Chingo360 said:
Yeah the Northern European regions could be areas of mercenaries. Then again, Rome would not use european mercenaries because that might mess up their civilan armies.

Of course they would. Not only did they do it OTL, even more, recruitment could be used to integrate these peoples. a warrior of 18 or 20 who enlists for a 25-year tour comes back speaking Latin and having Roman citizenship, with a nice little discharge bonus or a parcel of land and a taste for bread, wine, fish sauce and hot baths. And his son gets to be a legionary.
 
carlton_bach said:
Of course they would. Not only did they do it OTL, even more, recruitment could be used to integrate these peoples. a warrior of 18 or 20 who enlists for a 25-year tour comes back speaking Latin and having Roman citizenship, with a nice little discharge bonus or a parcel of land and a taste for bread, wine, fish sauce and hot baths. And his son gets to be a legionary.

It does not always work - Arminius.
 
carlton_bach said:
Nope, but it's better than the alternatives. And remember, Arminius was hunted down and killed by his family. Gotta love Germanic clan loyalty :)

taliking about no loyalty, "Oh yeah i found a new clan so i am gonna slaughter all of you..."
 
Umm... wouldn't all the natives of America die of small pox like our OTL? Also I doubt it would be called the Zulu Empire. The Zulus were a relatively late Civilization, only becoming powerful after 1800.
 
kidblast said:
Umm... wouldn't all the natives of America die of small pox like our OTL? Also I doubt it would be called the Zulu Empire. The Zulus were a relatively late Civilization, only becoming powerful after 1800.

if you would read kidblast then you would know that this is 2000 and that we already agreed that the Zulusare just filling up empty useless land.
 
Ok carlton I know the Vikings were not yet around in the fifth century but I could not help myself. Viking berserkers charging past the Eagles and then being backed up by Viking auxilaries with the Legions close behind is such a great vision! Seriously though, how would Kiev be founded if the Viking eastward expansion did not occur?

Lord Kalvan yes the eastern empire did have soldier farmers in the seventh century as part of the reforms to address the military shortages. It was feudalism in all but name.
 
MarkA said:
Seriously though, how would Kiev be founded if the Viking eastward expansion did not occur?

Probably wouldn't be founded or founded by someone else, also this might pave the way for a the later invasion (in OTL) of the Mongol Horde, they might sweep much farther into Europe, given they fact that they met no match for over 5000 miles.
 
carlton, interesting point about Judaism being the predominant, if not necessarily the state religion, of the empire. Why do you think the spiritual crisis will still occur as in OTL? Why would the christian sect not supplant mainstream Judaism? The latter would surely still be seen as an ancesteral religion and therefore less accessable than the new Paulician sect.

The latifundae were slave estates. Serfs are not slaves even though their economic status is similar. Manpower shortages were acute not because of civil or foreign wars but because of plagues and diseases. Why would this be any different from OTL?

I cannot resist saying that the Empire did not fall, it simply transmuted into something else. We are their heirs.
 
Chingo360 said:
As in we are roman, marka?

Yes. We are the direct heirs of the Roman tradition. Some Germanic traditions are very strong in western culture, particularly the notions of individual rights and democracy. But Rome adopted Germanic traditions also so we are still the direct social and political decendents of Rome.
 
MarkA said:
carlton, interesting point about Judaism being the predominant, if not necessarily the state religion, of the empire. Why do you think the spiritual crisis will still occur as in OTL? Why would the christian sect not supplant mainstream Judaism? The latter would surely still be seen as an ancesteral religion and therefore less accessable than the new Paulician sect.

Because Christianity does not come into being in the form we know it ATL. A form of rabbinic Judaism develops, emancipating itself from the Temple, and Jesus is one of its founders (he gets to live longer and his followers regard him as a prophet, not the Messiah). The 'spiritual crisis' - a questionable term for something we know very little about - will occur because rabbinic Judaism has the 'conversion' meme, though not as strongly as did Christianity or Islam. Unlike a pagan mystery or collegium, Jewish communities may grow, but (short of physical attrition) not shrink. Also, the practice of seeking out teachers in remote areas and sharing a unified body of learning makes them more effective in the more refgined urban spaces of the Empire, where local ties mean less and mobility is common. Your recruitment pool is just so much wider.

The latifundae were slave estates. Serfs are not slaves even though their economic status is similar. Manpower shortages were acute not because of civil or foreign wars but because of plagues and diseases. Why would this be any different from OTL?

/latifundium/ means 'big landholding' and was used quite commonly throughout the Empire, but the pure slae estates, mostly an Italian phenomenon to start with, developed only under very specific historical conditions in the Later Republic and ended when developments rendered them unprofitable. The typical Imperial estate comprised a commercial, highly specialised operation run by slaves under a 'vilicus' overseer on behalf of the owner, supplemented by seasonal day laborers as needed, and raable land rented out to free (or, occasionally, slave) coloni. This model, with variations in the proportion depending on the availability of slaves and pressure on land, was successful enough to remain basically the norm for almost a millennium.

As to the manpower crisis, the population developments would still be roughly the same (for what little we know of it), but they would not constitute the same degree of crisis. Bear in mind that a population drop can be restored over the course of several generations with the survivors paying the same level of taxes and consuming the same amount of state services per capita. The crisis becomes acute once the sum total of taxes and services remains the same, or even needs increasing. An epidemic itself is not automatically an economic crisis.
 
MarkA said:
Ok carlton I know the Vikings were not yet around in the fifth century but I could not help myself. Viking berserkers charging past the Eagles and then being backed up by Viking auxilaries with the Legions close behind is such a great vision! Seriously though, how would Kiev be founded if the Viking eastward expansion did not occur?

I would guess the general location is just too good, so there would be some foundation either by Slavic farmers and Greek, Romano-Germanic and Romano-Baltic traders, or by nomadic steppe peoples. By then, we have messed up the history of Eurasia so much we have no clue even who these nomads are going to be, and whether the Eastern Slavs may not be displaced by a Finno-Ugrian or Uralic-speaking population before the area gets urbanised.
 
carlton_bach said:
I would guess the general location is just too good, so there would be some foundation either by Slavic farmers and Greek, Romano-Germanic and Romano-Baltic traders, or by nomadic steppe peoples. By then, we have messed up the history of Eurasia so much we have no clue even who these nomads are going to be, and whether the Eastern Slavs may not be displaced by a Finno-Ugrian or Uralic-speaking population before the area gets urbanised.

Yeah i would think Slavs would found something along the lines of Kiev, they might eventually be discovered by traders coming from the north and east, they would just better hope that the Golden Horde doesnt get there first......
 
/latifundium/ means 'big landholding' and was used quite commonly throughout the Empire, but the pure slae estates, mostly an Italian phenomenon to start with, developed only under very specific historical conditions in the Later Republic and ended when developments rendered them unprofitable. The typical Imperial estate comprised a commercial, highly specialised operation run by slaves under a 'vilicus' overseer on behalf of the owner, supplemented by seasonal day laborers as needed, and raable land rented out to free (or, occasionally, slave) coloni. This model, with variations in the proportion depending on the availability of slaves and pressure on land, was successful enough to remain basically the norm for almost a millennium.

One wonders if the industrial revolution would ever happen considering the easy availability of slaves in the Roman Empire. I doubt Latifundia would develop though, because Judaism is very strict about the use of slaves. For example, you can only have Jewish slave for seven years before you set them free. Also slaves have to be treated well, and they get a day off like everyone else. Would this be a Empire of Jewish landholders and pagan slaves? Thirdly, I imagine that the Temple would be rebuilt in Jerusalem, and it would one of the major cities of the Empire.

Lastly, I can't imagine the Romans not invading Southern Africa, as it has a Medditerraen climate, which would suit Roman crops and lifestyles. If they can cross the Atlantic, the Romans can definately follow the coast of Africa.
 
Kidblast said:
Lastly, I can't imagine the Romans not invading Southern Africa, as it has a Medditerraen climate, which would suit Roman crops and lifestyles. If they can cross the Atlantic, the Romans can definately follow the coast of Africa.

They would definitely not invade south africa because they have all they want already, plus they expanded west as we have already laid down, not south. So dont get ticked cause SOUTH AFRICA is not Roman.
 
What I was saying was that it would make sense for the Romans to invade South Africa. More sense than them invading North America. Also the Phoenicians had already circumnavigated Africa in Ancient times so why couldn't the Romans?
 
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