A Healthy Baby Edward VI

[Nekromans]

So, say that Edward is born a healthy child, and lives out a full life instead of the seventeen years of OTL. How would his survival change Europe? We could see Calais being kept longer ITTL as an initial butterfly, should England not be forced into war whenever the Habsburgs felt like tearing a chunk or two out of France...

Another point to consider is that, without Bloody Mary to lower the public opinion of Catholicism in England the way she did IOTL, you'd see a significantly larger population of Catholics in England towards the end of his reign.

 

[Lord Grattan]

...without Bloody Mary to lower the public opinion of Catholicism in England the way she did IOTL, you'd see a significantly larger population of Catholics in England towards the end of his reign.

I'm not so sure. Edward was very dogmatic and devout in his faith.

 

[Nekromans]

I'm not so sure. Edward was very dogmatic and devout in his faith.

Which was my point. Mary unintentionally did about everything she could to damage Catholicism in England by outlawing all the other alternatives and by tying herself to a Catholic nation with no real benefit, and by executing all the heretics she could. Without her, Catholicism could have fared much better in England.

 

[Thande]

Nek's right here. By the time Eddie pops his clogs in say 1610, the Catholics will seem like the good guys. If his son is like him, you could see a civil war with some English nobles inviting a Catholic monarch in (perhaps the King of Scotland if Scotland stays Catholic in TTL - which it might do just to spite England, I suppose ). Then you'd have a mood not unlike after the Restoration in OTL.

 

[Nekromans]

Nek's right here.

The reward of this is worth the nigh-intolerable pain of putting effort into my posts.

By the time Eddie pops his clogs in say 1610, the Catholics will seem like the good guys. If his son is like him, you could see a civil war with some English nobles inviting a Catholic monarch in (perhaps the King of Scotland if Scotland stays Catholic in TTL - which it might do just to spite England, I suppose ). Then you'd have a mood not unlike after the Restoration in OTL.

Perhaps a Spanish guy? Catherine of Aragon was cherry-picked to marry the Tudor lads because of her descent from John of Gaunt, I think, so it makes some sense.

 

[Thande]

Perhaps a Spanish guy? Catherine of Aragon was cherry-picked to marry the Tudor lads because of her descent from John of Gaunt, I think, so it makes some sense.

I dunno, I think the Spanish might seem a bit too uber-Catholic; the English Catholic Lords would probably want someone who'll tolerate moderate Protestants or they'd get no support from moderate Protestant nobles who dislike Edward VI's heir (let's call him Henry IX).

I mentioned Scotland because of the descent through Margaret Tudor meaning that the Stuarts have a claim to the throne much like OTL.

Were there any European princes with Plantagenet blood if they wanted to try and restore the Yorkist line instead?

 

[Nekromans]

I dunno, I think the Spanish might seem a bit too uber-Catholic; the English Catholic Lords would probably want someone who'll tolerate moderate Protestants or they'd get no support from moderate Protestant nobles who dislike Edward VI's heir (let's call him Henry IX).

The Catholics had separation of church and state. They weren't quite as intolerant as they seem, and the Inquisition wasn't as Orwellian as people make out at this point.

I mentioned Scotland because of the descent through Margaret Tudor meaning that the Stuarts have a claim to the throne much like OTL.

Ah, damn, forgot about them. >.< I just like Anglo-Spanish unions too much, and Anglo-Scotland is so... OTL.

Were there any European princes with Plantagenet blood if they wanted to try and restore the Yorkist line instead?

Probably Spain and Portugal (if they aren't the same) - you could make the French claim, but a French king trying to claim the English throne at this point would make the HYW seem as active as a meditation session for the disabled.

 

[Lord Grattan]

I see your point Nek; an Edward VI without the family dynamics of the OTL would not have been such an uber-protestant and obviously w/o Mary I there would have been no Catholic counter-reformation.

 

[Thande]

Probably Spain and Portugal (if they aren't the same) - you could make the French claim, but a French king trying to claim the English throne at this point would make the HYW seem as active as a meditation session for the disabled.

Maybe we could tie this into the French Wars of Religion, i.e. Edward VI and Henry IV vs. Catholics in both countries rallying around a single claimant, resulting in an Anglo-French Union if they won.

 

[Nekromans]

Maybe we could tie this into the French Wars of Religion, i.e. Edward VI and Henry IV vs. Catholics in both countries rallying around a single claimant, resulting in an Anglo-French Union if they won.

But would this turn out like all the HYW threads where "France will obviously dominate"? Or could it be more like OTL Iberia, where Portugal still made a name for itself despite being in the union?

 

[Thande]

But would this turn out like all the HYW threads where "France will obviously dominate"? Or could it be more like OTL Iberia, where Portugal still made a name for itself despite being in the union?

1600 isn't 1300. England, I believe (though this may depend on Edward having done similar things to Liz, but the Spanish threat should result in that anyway) had a larger fleet than France, and thus would continue to hold its own influence in any union. Basically England would provide the ships and France would provide the army in some sort of geopolitical anti-Spanish (and perhaps anti-Dutch, but let's not ignore butterflies) trade and colonisation pact.

 

[Nekromans]

1600 isn't 1300. England, I believe (though this may depend on Edward having done similar things to Liz, but the Spanish threat should result in that anyway) had a larger fleet than France, and thus would continue to hold its own influence in any union. Basically England would provide the ships and France would provide the army in some sort of geopolitical anti-Spanish (and perhaps anti-Dutch, but let's not ignore butterflies) trade and colonisation pact.

Awesomeness!

But before we get carried away, how likely would all this be? Perhaps we could marry off a hypothetical child of Edward's to a French king, but...

 

[Roadwarrior]

Very interesting. I've always wondered about Edward living longer - it seemed like a pretty good turning point in English history.

I'm not sure I agree with the assertion here that his living longer will be a good result for english catholicism. He grew up under the influence/teachings of a virulently anti-catholic Archbishop of Canterbury (Cranmer?). There are letters or lessons written by Edward naming the Pope as the anti-christs chief disciple on earth (or words to that effect).

So, I don't see how this is a good outcome for catholicism - even without Mary burning every protestant in sight. Would it not be more likely that England would end up radically protestant rather than the sort of middle ground in OTL? Of course, this will likely trigger earlier attempts at conquest by Spain (in the name of the church) so to survive the English would need to become highly militarised (not just navy but army as well).

I suppose a successful conquest by Spain could be considered a good outcome for catholicism but I don't think English catholics would agree.

 

[Rick Robinson]

Belatedly --

Which was my point. Mary unintentionally did about everything she could to damage Catholicism in England by outlawing all the other alternatives and by tying herself to a Catholic nation with no real benefit, and by executing all the heretics she could. Without her, Catholicism could have fared much better in England.

The flip side is that Edward is likely to be a much more zealous Protestant than Elizabeth was. She left English Catholicism to die on the vine for the first 20 years of her reign, and it was dying till the Church started active missionary efforts by opening Douai, etc. That plus the Spanish threat pushed Elizabeth into persecution.

In an Edward scenario, Catholicism is not discredited by Mary, but the Protestantizing effort is likely to be far more active than under Elizabeth. If he has a long reign, England will probably emerge as a solidly Protestant country - cuius regio, eius religio is pretty much how it worked out in the 16th century in practice.

 

[Tyr]

I've read its a bit of a weird glitch of history he's seen as a ill child and was actually pretty healthy until the illness that finally killed him. But that's besides the point.

As to him being religious...Well I've read that too, apparently he'd make England rather strictly protestant ala Sweden and the Netherlands. BUT that was mostly down to his protector, not him. He didn't have much say in things.

 

[Thande]

Very interesting. I've always wondered about Edward living longer - it seemed like a pretty good turning point in English history.

I'm not sure I agree with the assertion here that his living longer will be a good result for english catholicism. He grew up under the influence/teachings of a virulently anti-catholic Archbishop of Canterbury (Cranmer?). There are letters or lessons written by Edward naming the Pope as the anti-christs chief disciple on earth (or words to that effect).

So, I don't see how this is a good outcome for catholicism - even without Mary burning every protestant in sight. Would it not be more likely that England would end up radically protestant rather than the sort of middle ground in OTL? Of course, this will likely trigger earlier attempts at conquest by Spain (in the name of the church) so to survive the English would need to become highly militarised (not just navy but army as well).

No, because as soon as he dies, people will react against his radical Protestantism, just as they did after Cromwell in OTL (and were all merry and tolerant of high-churchies and Catholics for 20 years after the killjoy decade).

 

[Rick Robinson]

No, because as soon as he dies, people will react against his radical Protestantism, just as they did after Cromwell in OTL (and were all merry and tolerant of high-churchies and Catholics for 20 years after the killjoy decade).

Well, how long are we supposing he lives? If Mary had ruled for a generation, her re-Catholicization might have stuck, no matter how unpopular the burnings. But if Edward lives, with a fairly long reign, there's no re-Catholicization effort at all, just a steady slide to the "left."

Also - just to be speculative here - what would a Presbyterian England really look like by, say, c. 1580, when in OTL the Catholic Church started really pushing back? Our image is compounded of the dour Puritans and the dour Scottish Kirk. But the Dutch Protestants, also Calvinists, developed a far more tolerant style.

I'd argue that there may be very deep roots of semipelagianism in English religious life, and rigorism just doesn't go over, no matter what the official theology. An Edwardian church would probably develop a moderate wing, and Edward himself might moderate as he grew up and discovered wine, women, and song - hey, as dad said, it's good to be king. As Leej kind of hinted, we tend to view Edward in light of knowing that he died at 16, so "small, sickly boy" just comes to mind, and we spin a whole image of a wheezing, pale little religious fanatic.

But to my broader suggestion, sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander. There is a stereotype that a Catholic restoration in England will look like Spain, and end up in a backwards world like Kingsley Amis' Alteration. But perhaps English Catholicism would end up with a flavor like high church Anglicanism. Not like OTL Anglo-Catholicism, because it would be the mainstream, not a minority movement.