A Continent Asunder, an alternate World War 1

It was obvious to Russian planners that should Germany not attack Belgium that she would attack Russia.

As such with the British declarations of neutrality should Belgian neutrality be respected the odds that Germany would invade east and defend west was considered all but certain.

It is for this reason that Russia implemented plan G. The active portions of the Russian army would retreat, the last out portions of the army disabling infrastructure as Russia fell back.

The Russian war plan called for one army in Saint Petersburg to offer defence from naval landings. Another three army retreating through Poland and Lithuania although possibly further east to defensible positions where they would be reinforced by mobilised reserve and two armies deployed south against Austria Hungary.

Russia knew that Austria and Germany would have the forces available on the Eastern front but felt that differing rail gauge systems meant that a German army in Russia had as much hope of surviving the winter as Napoleon’s French armies a year earlier.

At sea the Black Sea was irrelevant as there were no belligerents to fight with. The Baltic Sea however saw a massive Russian disadvantage compared with the German fleet. Germany would for all intents and purposes be able to act in the Baltic at will. While Russia had eight capital ships for the Baltic Sea being built, four battleships in the process of being fitted out and four battlecruisers still on the slips it would still see the Russian Fleet being out numbered significantly. The best option for Russia would be to maintain its Fleet as a Fleet in Being and hope that the British Empire would be drawn into the war. At that point the Russian Baltic Fleet would be able to deal with the rump of the German navy that would remain.

To compound Russian problems on Land it would take significantly longer for Russia to mobilise compared to her German and Austrian neighbours. This meant that despite mobilising first the Russian army would take two weeks more for its troops to reach the front line. Or rather two weeks more for its newly mobilised troops to reach the pre-war borders. Should the front line be to the east of “Congress Poland” then Russian reservists should reach the front line before German reservists.

The German Russian first plan was supplemented by an Austrian Plan RE, as opposed the plan S and plan R that was previously debated. Plan B (for Balkans) called for three armies invading Serbia and a further three defending against Russia. Plan R (for Russia) called for four armies defending the Russian border and two armies invading Serbia. Plan RE (for Russia expanded) was aligned with the German Von Molkte Plan. The combined plan was to knock Russia out of the war early so that the armies could go West later. This meant that five Austrian armies were invading Russia while a single army served attack Serbia.



Short update looking at Russian and Austrian war plans. Russia are implementing plan G (while historically they implemented plan A) while Austria are implementing plan RE which was not on the table historically. Historically Austria split their attentions more between the Russia and Serbia where as here there is a concentrated effort by the central powers to knock Russia out first.
 

RavenMM

Banned
interesting beginning. Wonder what the industrial area/capacity along the french/german border will do for the french when it's not occupied.

Any wagers who invades belgium first?
 
Any wagers who invades belgium first?

I'd say Germany after knocking out Russia and testing out France's defenses. France would have been throwing itself on German defenses for awhile and just lost a major ally. I imagine that blitzing through Belgium could actually result in Germany taking Paris before any sizable British force can land in such a scenario.
 
Disregard this timeline post an altered post replacing this one is here

Filling the gap in the foreign office caused by Grey’s resignation was the Colonial Secretary Robert Crewe-Milnes, 1st Marquess of Crewe. In this role his first act was to call on both sides of the Greater European Conflagration, as the continental conflict was known in the British press, to publish documents listing their war aims.

The German government with the consent of the Austrian government promptly replied with a list of Central Power War Aims. This was called the eight point plan.

1. The Kingdom of Poland will be created out of Russian Poland. All German and Austrian Poles will be free to move to the Kingdom of Poland. The new King of Poland will be a selectee of the German Empire.

2. The Duchy of Courland and Lithuania will be created from the Russian Baltic as a free and independent state. The Duke of Courland and Lithuania will be a selectee of the German Empire.

3. The people of the Russian autonomous Grand Duchy of Finland will be given the option to be released as an independent state. Should they agree a new Grand Duke will be appointed by the German Empire.

4. Areas of the Ukraine east of Austria Hungary will be established as a new kingdom. The new King of Ukraine will be a selectee of the Austro Hungarian Empire.

5. Russia will pay moderate reparations for starting the war.

6. Serbia will assent to all demands contained the in the 23 July ultimatum and Austrian observers will be present within Serbia to see this. The word will of the Austrian officials will have primacy over the word of all local officials when it comes to carrying out the demands of the ultimatum.

7. France will cede the following colonies to the German Empire. (I) Morrocco, (II) The Ivory Coast, (III) French Congo, (IV) Gabon, (IV) Madagascar, (V) French Indo-China.

8. France will pay reparations such that a German fortified line can be built in German Alsace Lorraine such that France will never consider invading Germany again.


This document was scrutinized by many members of the cabinet over the opening weeks of the war. Many considered that this was a step too far in the creation of the European Hegemon. Others pointed out that Britain had already declared herself neutral, so in reality it was none of her concern unless Britain chose to go back on its word.


I'd say Germany after knocking out Russia and testing out France's defenses. France would have been throwing itself on German defenses for awhile and just lost a major ally. I imagine that blitzing through Belgium could actually result in Germany taking Paris before any sizable British force can land in such a scenario.

Or as Russia is falling will France see one last chance to win the war by invading through Belgium ;)

Or maybe Belgium will seek out active British participation in guaranteeing Belgian neutrality, involving Britain loaning money to create a system of forts on the German border and providing troops to man them. ;)

Anything could happen.
 
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Minor (well, maybe not so) minor quibble: how and when was von Hindenburg called out of retirement? IOTL, he was retired when hostilities got under way in 1914, and was only brought back when the situation in East Prussia looked rather dire. That was when Ludendorff was given overall command in the east, and for political reasons I don't fully understand, there was an overarching desire/need in Berlin to have an ennobled "von" at the uppermost echelon: hence, von Hindenburg.

When the old boy came out of retirement, he did so in the blue uniform of Prussia since he hadn't bothered / didn't need to get (until then) one of the new field grey uniforms.

(I should note this is covered pretty well in The Guns of August.)
 
Minor (well, maybe not so) minor quibble: how and when was von Hindenburg called out of retirement? IOTL, he was retired when hostilities got under way in 1914, and was only brought back when the situation in East Prussia looked rather dire. That was when Ludendorff was given overall command in the east, and for political reasons I don't fully understand, there was an overarching desire/need in Berlin to have an ennobled "von" at the uppermost echelon: hence, von Hindenburg.

When the old boy came out of retirement, he did so in the blue uniform of Prussia since he hadn't bothered / didn't need to get (until then) one of the new field grey uniforms.

(I should note this is covered pretty well in The Guns of August.)

Hindenberg didn't retire at the same time the planning for the war was different and he was more heavily involved which pushed off his retirement.
 
Filling the gap in the foreign office caused by Grey’s resignation was the Colonial Secretary Robert Crewe-Milnes, 1st Marquess of Crewe. In this role his first act was to call on both sides of the Greater European Conflagration, as the continental conflict was known in the British press, to publish documents listing their war aims.

The German government with the consent of the Austrian government promptly replied with a list of Central Power War Aims. This was called the eight point plan.

1. The Kingdom of Poland will be created out of Russian Poland. All German and Austrian Poles will be free to move to the Kingdom of Poland. The new King of Poland will be a selectee of the German Empire.

2. The Duchy of Courland and Lithuania will be created from the Russian Baltic as a free and independent state. The Duke of Courland and Lithuania will be a selectee of the German Empire.

3. The people of the Russian autonomous Grand Duchy of Finland will be given the option to be released as an independent state. Should they agree a new Grand Duke will be appointed by the German Empire.

4. Areas of the Ukraine east of Austria Hungary will be established as a new kingdom. The new King of Ukraine will be a selectee of the Austro Hungarian Empire.

5. Russia will pay moderate reparations for starting the war.

6. Serbia will assent to all demands contained the in the 23 July ultimatum and Austrian observers will be present within Serbia to see this. The word will of the Austrian officials will have primacy over the word of all local officials when it comes to carrying out the demands of the ultimatum.

7. France will cede the following colonies to the German Empire. (I) Morrocco, (II) The Ivory Coast, (III) French Congo, (IV) Gabon, (IV) Madagascar, (V) French Indo-China.

8. France will pay reparations such that a German fortified line can be built in German Alsace Lorraine such that France will never consider invading Germany again.


This document was scrutinized by many members of the cabinet over the opening weeks of the war. Many considered that this was a step too far in the creation of the European Hegemon. Others pointed out that Britain had already declared herself neutral, so in reality it was none of her concern unless Britain chose to go back on its word.




Or as Russia is falling will France see one last chance to win the war by invading through Belgium ;)

Or maybe Belgium will seek out active British participation in guaranteeing Belgian neutrality, involving Britain loaning money to create a system of forts on the German border and providing troops to man them. ;)

Anything could happen.

OTL the Russians held out for 3 years after Tannenberg did a number on their prewar professional army. I don't see why they would fall earlier if they start in defensive mode, in fact they will probably hold longer. And a France that hasn't lost the Lille Industrial region is much stronger. France did learn quite a few lessons during the war OTL, and assuming Russia goes down 1917-18, Germany could turn west to find a France that has developed technical solutions to the problems of offense, as they did OTL, and with more production, has 10,000 Renault FT's built, as they planned to have in 1919.

Anything could happen.
 
Those demands by the Central Powers seem pretty extreme. Seeing that Germany took just A/L in the last war, what has been demanded seems out of proportion. Would Britain really allow Germany and Austria to get so much land, power, and influence?
 
Those demands by the Central Powers seem pretty extreme. Seeing that Germany took just A/L in the last war, what has been demanded seems out of proportion. Would Britain really allow Germany and Austria to get so much land, power, and influence?

That is their war aims. They have to win first and then win concessions at the negotiation table. It is however increasing concern about a European hegemon in Britain.
 
That is their war aims. They have to win first and then win concessions at the negotiation table. It is however increasing concern about a European hegemon in Britain.

The war aims seem pretty out there. In the end all they will do is stiffin the resolveof France and Russia. They might also piss of some elements of Britain and other countries with their Empire demands. Might this have results that will bit Germany and Austria in the ass.
 
The war aims seem pretty out there. In the end all they will do is stiffin the resolveof France and Russia. They might also piss of some elements of Britain and other countries with their Empire demands. Might this have results that will bit Germany and Austria in the ass.

Are they more out there than the Franco-Russian war aims, though? Those probably include the complete dissolution of Austria-Hungary, the cession of all German colonies to France, Alsace-Lorraine back, even higher reparations, and other delights. And if Turkey were in the war yet, Russian demands on them would look really aggressive.
 

RavenMM

Banned
I don't think the war aims would be publisized like this. The war is about serbia at the moment. Official war aims would more likely be along the lines of subduing serbia, having france garantee Elsaß-Lothringen as a german possession and the payment of reparation. Of course, some defortified zones, maybe some border corrections against russia... but no much more would be told the other powers. It's not an all out industrial scale war yet. everybody still dreams of a quick victory...
 
Are they more out there than the Franco-Russian war aims, though? Those probably include the complete dissolution of Austria-Hungary, the cession of all German colonies to France, Alsace-Lorraine back, even higher reparations, and other delights. And if Turkey were in the war yet, Russian demands on them would look really aggressive.
Not really and you will find out tomorrow or maybe saturday. I've three ideas for posts that I want to do but I am not sure of the best order yet.

I don't think the war aims would be publisized like this. The war is about serbia at the moment. Official war aims would more likely be along the lines of subduing serbia, having france garantee Elsaß-Lothringen as a german possession and the payment of reparation. Of course, some defortified zones, maybe some border corrections against russia... but no much more would be told the other powers. It's not an all out industrial scale war yet. everybody still dreams of a quick victory...

It's not really public but rather provided by to a neutral great power who hopes to mediate. It is my understanding that this was common enough in wars in the 1800s. Austria and Sweden both received lists of war aims from Britain and France during the crimean war although neither was involved in mediating the final treaty.

Britain was issued with a list of war aims by Prussia in the Schweilschweig Holstein war, france was issued a list of war aims in the early days of the six week war and went on to mediate a peace settlement.


Once war was declared germany was in it to finish it and you can find numerous public quotes from senior germans about war aims from the first six months.
 
To mee it seems that Austria-Hungary and Germany are overtly both optimistic and too specific about their war aims right now. In essense they are already planning how to sell the skin, while the proverbial bear is still very much alive.

Vague ideas about a buffer zone in the East and reducing Russia in size are certainly historical at this point, but talking about the future of Ukraine right now seems literally far-fetched - the distance from Köningsberg to Petrograd is equal to the distance between Metz and and the Spanish border, and the route from from Krakow to Kiev equals the distance from the Franco-German border to Bretagne.

German general staff knows this, and their OTL war plans against Russia were all pessimistic as they acknowledged the fact that Russia could always withdraw to interiour lines, pulling potential invades to march deeper into hostile territory with abysmal supply lines. The longest distance they deemed viable for attacking in pre-war plans was a line roughly from Riga to Kiev - and in their pre-war exercises this war game ended to a situation where the French forces had bypassed the German fortresses at Metz.

Hence it will be interesting to see what kind of strategy they will pursue against this hostile coalition in this situation.
 
OTL the Russians held out for 3 years after Tannenberg did a number on their prewar professional army. I don't see why they would fall earlier if they start in defensive mode, in fact they will probably hold longer. And a France that hasn't lost the Lille Industrial region is much stronger. France did learn quite a few lessons during the war OTL, and assuming Russia goes down 1917-18, Germany could turn west to find a France that has developed technical solutions to the problems of offense, as they did OTL, and with more production, has 10,000 Renault FT's built, as they planned to have in 1919.

Anything could happen.

France doesn't have the British to help out and doesn't have an opponent constantly trying to attack and get around them.

Or as Russia is falling will France see one last chance to win the war by invading through Belgium ;)

Or maybe Belgium will seek out active British participation in guaranteeing Belgian neutrality, involving Britain loaning money to create a system of forts on the German border and providing troops to man them. ;)

Anything could happen.

I considered that first option but then decided, "Nah, they wouldn't be that stupid." That second option could be a real possibility though. And if the war isn't going great for France then forts may be popping up on the French border too! :cool:
 
You are right about war aims. Europe very much drifted into WW1 OTL. Frequent blustering over multiple crisis (Morocco, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Agadir) had lead to a cavalier attitude to both mobilisations and the possibility of war. There were elements in all countries that openly talked about the need for war and public opinion had become increasingly bellicose. This in turn lead to a general acceptance (on both sides) that the other would have to be physically dismembered and their war making capacity eliminated, or at least severly reduced.

These types of war aims were not generally 'officially endorsed' in the first part of the war OTL, due to a desperate desire by both sides to sell themselves as the aggrieved party. This ofc enabled the Entente to be 'horrified' by the brutality of B-L. I see no reason why this TL wouldbe any different in that respect. Germany would be foolish to endorse such terms even privately to a neutral Great Power such as Great Britain. The Germans have done a great job in keeping GB out of this conflict, it wouldbe a shame to blow it now, although this is Kaiser Bill's government, so anything is possible I gues:rolleyes:
 
Interestingly in august 1914 the Kaiser spoke about the war securing colonies and reinforcing germanies place in the sun

Ludendorf and Hindenburg spoke about lebensraum in the east, annexing poland and lituania as a war aim, in early 1915.

That said I agree with lord ireland and karelian that it is too specific. Will edit when updating tomorrow.
 
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